Current Affairs EU In or Out

[roydo]

I will admit I never heard of Cummings, Banks et al. until after the result and the aftermath, and I suspect if I look back at the start of this thread those 2 names will hardly be mentioned, they became well known afterwards (although I stand to be corrected, they were just people I hadn't paid any attention to/about)

I always thought Trump was all about what's in Trumps best interest, the only thing that separates him from the rest is they are (mainly) a lot more subtle about it

Thats the problem mate. Few on the Leave campaign did. They just lapped up the crap they were fed.

Take Back Control.

Control of our Borders.

Turkey will join the EU and flood us with immigrants.

All their handiwork, and all utter bollox.

 

[Ruairi77]

I will admit I never heard of Cummings, Banks et al. until after the result and the aftermath, and I suspect if I look back at the start of this thread those 2 names will hardly be mentioned, they became well known afterwards (although I stand to be corrected, they were just people I hadn't paid any attention to/about)

I always thought Trump was all about what's in Trumps best interest, the only thing that separates him from the rest is they are (mainly) a lot more subtle about it

Fair points.
Hindsight is 20/20
and maybe Brexit will be a great success. I genuinely hope it is.
I did fear for the brake up of the EU but I think the pigs ear of mess that is the UK leaving has probably shored up the EU if anything.
And as long as there is no hard border on the Island of Ireland, a prosperous UK is very important.
With the likes of Trump/Bolsinaro/Putin/Modi etc, and with the prospect of a second Scottish ref, you're going to need the strongest leadership you can get to navigate the change and I'm not sure you have that.

 

[Blues Harp]

The fact that Blair was a remainer was enough to ensure a leave vote, particularly amongst Labour voters in the north.

Fear of immigrants was far more of a factor (caveat: not all those who voted to leave are racists)....

 

[Ruairi77]

Fear of immigrants was far more of a factor (caveat: not all those who voted to leave are racists)....

yup, again, from afar, Farages posters with enormous queues of immigrants seems to have been the messaged that resonated strongest.

 

[random]

If you are the biggest (or one of the biggest) player at the table controlling the largest wealthiest economic block in the world, you have more power and influence than if you are a mid sized economy trading on your own.
Should be well worth the compromise of having to negotiate some legislation.

My perception of this, and this is my own take on things from memory but I admit it did influence my vote to a degree.

There was something that is now known as the Bloomberg Speech in 2013, if you are not aware of this Cameron made a big thing out of going to the EU to get concessions prior to the brexit vote.

Unfortunately Cameron did not realise that the EU would tell him to basically F Off. The EU if anything, applies everything to everyone with very few exceptions (if at all) and just because there was the threat of the UK leaving they were not playing ball

So when he returned with his tail between his legs it looked as if the UK had next to no power at all. There would have been more of a chance of remain winning if he hadn't promised what he couldn't deliver and didn't bother trying.

But as you say hindsight and all that...

 

[Ruairi77]

My perception of this, and this is my own take on things from memory but I admit it did influence my vote to a degree.

There was something that is now known as the Bloomberg Speech in 2013, if you are not aware of this Cameron made a big thing out of going to the EU to get concessions prior to the brexit vote.

Unfortunately Cameron did not realise that the EU would tell him to basically F Off. The EU if anything, applies everything to everyone with very few exceptions (if at all) and just because there was the threat of the UK leaving they were not playing ball

So when he returned with his tail between his legs it looked as if the UK had next to no power at all. There would have been more of a chance of remain winning if he hadn't promised what he couldn't deliver and didn't bother trying.

But as you say hindsight and all that...

Yeah, I think Cameron screwed you.
The UK was already outside the Euro and schengen and had plenty of special conditions in place to protect the city. So it wasn't the strongest negotiating position going in. But I do think Cameron didn't try hard enough as he wanted to scare the backbenchers as he knew they wouldn't accept anything short of total withdrawal.
Basically, I reckon the EU knew what position Cameron was in with his government so didn't want to even risk destabilizing the union by making guarantees that, if applied to all 27 members would essentially bring down the EU and that the Tories wouldn't accept anyway.
I do think Cameron could have reached a better compromise but we'll never know.
It also seems that Cameron was caught by surprise by the amount of third party interference in the leave campaign and had no good plan to combat it.
He basically unlocked the door and welcomed all sorts of nefarious people in!
And I don't think you're in much better shape now.
The fact that the best of your last three PM's is Theresa May is kinda shocking.

 

[random]

The fact that the best of your last three PM's is Theresa May is kinda shocking.

For running the country, I would put her 3rd, the current idiot 2nd and Cameron the best (?!?) of an admittedly very poor selection. It's not a high bar at all to be honest with you.


May I always thought was too weak, tried to keep everyone happy and in doing so alienated everyone, her aim was just to avoid confrontation.
Johnson is just a blagger, but for some reason gets a pass from journalists (maybe because he used to be one ?)
Cameron, compared to the other two, I found more palatable, although Dennis Skinner had his number when he called him 'Dodgy Dave'

 

[Ruairi77]

For running the country, I would put her 3rd, the current idiot 2nd and Cameron the best (?!?) of an admittedly very poor selection. It's not a high bar at all to be honest with you.


May I always thought was too weak, tried to keep everyone happy and in doing so alienated everyone, her aim was just to avoid confrontation.
Johnson is just a blagger, but for some reason gets a pass from journalists (maybe because he used to be one ?)
Cameron, compared to the other two, I found more palatable, although Dennis Skinner had his number when he called him 'Dodgy Dave'

I think Cameron has to go down as the worst for calling/promising the referendum. What ever the result, it split your country in a whole new way.
May, as you say, seems to have been ho-hum, trying to please everyone and just annoying everyone, and I guess Johnsons legacy will be written in 2021.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think Cameron has to go down as the worst for calling/promising the referendum. What ever the result, it split your country in a whole new way.
May, as you say, seems to have been ho-hum, trying to please everyone and just annoying everyone, and I guess Johnsons legacy will be written in 2021.

May was the architect of the 'hostile environment' to migrants. Ghastly ghoulish curtain twitcher.

 

[Ruairi77]

May was the architect of the 'hostile environment' to migrants. Ghastly ghoulish curtain twitcher.

oh, dont get me wrong, more just pointing out how terrible Cameron and Johnson are.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

oh, dont get me wrong, more just pointing out how terrible Cameron and Johnson are.

Johnson is a lazy chancer, Cameron had decent enough principles but misjudged the referendum horrendously, but May actually believed her social policies. It's not a high bar by any stretch, but I'd take Cameron over the other two every day of the week.

 

[Blues Harp]

Cameron panicked at the thought of the racist farage taking votes from his party, and promised a referendum which he thought would be a stay vote...this let all the ERG loonies in to frighten the great British public with "the immigrants" Not the only reason I admit, but a huge factor.

 

[Ruairi77]

Johnson is a lazy chancer, Cameron had decent enough principles but misjudged the referendum horrendously, but May actually believed her social policies. It's not a high bar by any stretch, but I'd take Cameron over the other two every day of the week.

again, with the caveat that I don't live there, Cameron misjudging the referendum is an absolutely huge issue.
History will remember him as the man who divided a country, May's leadership will be a depressing foot note.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

again, with the caveat that I don't live there, Cameron misjudging the referendum is an absolutely huge issue.
History will remember him as the man who divided a country, May's leadership will be a depressing foot note.

Without a doubt. He did, however, drag the Tories away from the loony fringes that have come back to the fore since the referendum. Lest we forget, utter mutants like IDS and Michael Howard were leaders before him.

 

[Methuselah]

For running the country, I would put her 3rd, the current idiot 2nd and Cameron the best (?!?) of an admittedly very poor selection. It's not a high bar at all to be honest with you.


May I always thought was too weak, tried to keep everyone happy and in doing so alienated everyone, her aim was just to avoid confrontation.
Johnson is just a blagger, but for some reason gets a pass from journalists (maybe because he used to be one ?)
Cameron, compared to the other two, I found more palatable, although Dennis Skinner had his number when he called him 'Dodgy Dave'

I had the unusual opportunity to discuss Brexit with Theresa May in my front room. It was a Saturday afternoon and she had flown back that morning from a meeting with the EU in Munich and had decided to do some constituency visits on her way home. (She is one of, if not the best, constituency MP's in the House of Commons). At the time, after every Brexit meeting with the EU, the EU were leaking all sorts of snide comments to the press (like criticising the food they were served at a London meeting). I raised this with May and her response that the UK negotiating team could 'fight their corner' was entirely unconvincing. She was with us for about 20 minutes before knocking on other doors in the street. Her security stood in the front doorway and wouldn't let us close it.