Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Barnfred 55]

Personally think it’s the other way round. I have never heard a leave supporter state anything positive about the eu. Whereas many people that voted to remain admit to flaws within the eu. That’s the reason the leave vote won. It was based on a black and white ideology whereas to vote remain was more of a nuanced decision that was not driven by blinkered prejudice.

I've never said leave supporters weren't bigoted in their views on Brexit. The vast majority of them are, which is why the country is so polarised on the subject.

I've posted lot's on here when I've disagreed with fellow Brexiteers, especially as regards no deal. I've also posted when I've given credit to the EU. Not many maybe but I have done so.

And your last paragraph is just proof in point. They are not the views or reasons of Brexiteers. They are your take on what our views and reasons are, that you then try to pigeon hole. Nobody has tried to understand us. That's just as frustrating to me as I'm sure somebody quoting 52% or "we won" is to you.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Benefits of staying?

Free trade Both the EU and UK want a free trade deal. It's in both our interest for this to happen and is central to the future relationship statement that is already on the table in may's deal.
No Irish border issue/tensions in NI Simple solution, and I hope it still happens, is that NI stay in the single market. Solves all issues and would be great for their economy as many firms would undoubtedly open offices there. This would undoubtedly already have happened if we hadn't allowed ourselves to be dictated to by a handful of DUP MPs
Control of our borders for non EU citizens Not sure what you mean. There would arguably be less control of our borders for none EU citizens as we would be issuing work permits to those applicants most suitable to the jobs on offer, rather than based on where they come from.
Workers rights Why would this change?. Same with citizens rights. There would be a bill to adopt all EU laws and May has already said this wouldn't be affected. Even if they tried to change in the future it would have to be passed by parliamentary bill, which can always be reversed at a later date.
Free movement within the EU I'm not going there again with my views on this. but they are well documented and NOT racist if you care to look back in here a few weeks. As regards existing EU citizens in the UK and vice versa, perfectly reasonable arrangements are in place to ensure indefinite right to remain should May's deal be implemented.
UK manufacturing base an access route to the EU market A free trade deal would cover a lot of the issues with this. Otherwise the manufacturers just need to make sure they keep up with any EU changes. Initially, all rules are met as we are currently part of it.
Access to the European Court(s) Not sure what point you are making
Secure and working supply chain. I don't understand why this would be any problem. We have a need for jobs that we can't fill from those currently in the UK then we advertise abroad and issue work permits
Security for London (and Edinburgh) as leaders in the financial markets. If we have a free trade deal I can't see what the issue would be. The concern at the moment surrounds a no deal and all the uncertainty.

Thats without going into detail re numerous pan EU cooperation arrangements that others such as @Bruce Wayne are more familier with. Again what's the problem. We just pay to be members of that particular arrangement, and the other E27 would be happy with this as generally we also bring a lot of expertise to the table.

All the main concerns relate to a no deal which I think we can be fairly certain now will not happen. We will either stay in the EU or leave on a negotiated deal which will not hurt the economy anywhere near as much as a no deal.

.

 

[Jebus_lives]

So what question would that be?. An open question like you suggested, that probably would have given hundreds of different responses, all written on 2 sides of A4 paper and involving queues around the block at the polling stations. Or maybe a simple closed question that will alienate maybe as much as 90% of the leave vote. I've asked you this question before but you've always sidestepped it, so I'll ask you again.

Do you really believe that a second referendum that disengages millions of leave voters is either democratic or fair?.

Ifs and buts. Ifs and buts.

If May had not tried to put Brexit through as a government process, when it was clear to everyone with any sense that it needed a parliamentary law passing, we wouldn't have wasted valuable months fighting lengthy and expensive court cases in which the outcome was inevitable.

If May had formulated a proper cross party plan before invoking article 50.

If May hadn't called the general election which saw her lose her majority, and then exacerbate this by entering into an alliance with the DUP when he knew that the Irish border was always going to be one of the major hurdles to overcome.

If the EU hadn't insisted in the "divorce settlement" being concluded first rather than allow discussions on our future relationship to take place simultaneously.

And if Cameron had not risked dividing the whole country just to stop a migration of a few MPs and Tory voters to UKIP.

Ifs and buts mean nothing mate.

Jesus and they say 'remain' is project Fear... Could you not envisage a referendum with maybe 6 options? It's common for referendum to have more than one option.

I'm not sidestepping it, stop being so dramatic...I just haven't given you the possible options.

And I'll ask you again, at what point does the process become undemocratic, when there is clearly electoral fraud and foreign interference or when parliament can't decide on what option they want for an advisory referendum?

 

[Jebus_lives]

Very expensive wafffle which you as a Remoaners would make a point off every post........

I have no clue where to even start with how bad this is as a post.

 

[Jebus_lives]

People keep on going on about the leave campaign being illegal. It was illegal in so far as the official Vote Leave organisation overspent their budget by around 10%. The way people are going on you're making out they were standing outside poll stations intimidating voters and forcing people which way to vote. Remain overall still outspent leave by over £2m during the campaign. And this totally ignores the £9m+ spent by the government.

You all say that this was the governments duty. No, you are wrong. The govts duty was to give impartial information to the electorate to help them make their mind up. But that leaflet was 100% supporting remain. There was not a single benefit of leaving the EU listed. The Govt should have been listed as the most prominent Remain organisation and given the same £7m budget as Vote leave were. If that were the case they exceeded their budget by closer to 30%. Going on from there, the BSIE group would not have had their £7m budget. Talking of the BSIE group, there have also been allegations that they made many "donations", similar to the Vote Leave campaign, that were initially allowed by the Electoral Commission. These just haven't been challenged in court.

The ironic thing in all this is, had the government been more impartial, then they probably would have influenced a lot more people who were undecided. But because they came out on one side, people saw it as the govt telling them what to do.

It was only a little bit of electoral fraud m'lord...

Oh and the government weren't covered by campaign spending, as you know, as I've posted in this thread multiple times.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Don't forget we could put that road salt on our chips Reg.

Weed killer I think...

 

[Barnfred 55]

Jesus and they say 'remain' is project Fear... Could you not envisage a referendum with maybe 6 options? It's common for referendum to have more than one option.

I'm not sidestepping it, stop being so dramatic...I just haven't given you the possible options.

And I'll ask you again, at what point does the process become undemocratic, when there is clearly electoral fraud and foreign interference or when parliament can't decide on what option they want for an advisory referendum?

Every version of a people's vote I've seen on here is Remain V whatever plan is flavour of the month or on the odd occasion Remain V No deal. So no, I don't think I'm being paranoid.

I can't really envisage a referendum done with 6 possible scenarios no. Maybe maximum of 3 which could be remain, some form of soft Brexit deal, or no deal.

I do think it would be a good idea though to use the referendum polling process to do a survey just to find out what Brexit supporters have a preference for. Almost like the indicative votes in parliament. Where you can vote for more than on option. It could also be used to ascertain what, if any, version of Brexit would remain supporters go for. If nothing else we would have more idea of what people want, rather than what they don't want. Where have I heard that before.

 

[Barnfred 55]

It was only a little bit of electoral fraud m'lord...

Oh and the government weren't covered by campaign spending, as you know, as I've posted in this thread multiple times.

I know you have. And I'm saying they should have been because they weren't impartial. They were blatantly biased. As I've posted in this thread multiple times.

 

[Jebus_lives]

OK. I'll turn this in it's head.

Such as?

• 'The UK did not need a transition deal and would not be subject to EU rules or budgets during one.
• Brexit dividend
• Still have access to the single market
• Transition is just to implement final deal
• UK would owe no money to the EU once we left
• Make trade deals with individual EU countries
• 100's trade deals concluded by 29th March
• High tech solution for border
• Free movement would come to an end on 29 March 2019
• No role for ECJ in UK post Brexit
• Turkey will flood EU with immigrants
• There will be no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.
• We would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals
• Union will be stronger

 

[Jebus_lives]

Every version of a people's vote I've seen on here is Remain V whatever plan is flavour of the month or on the odd occasion Remain V No deal. So no, I don't think I'm being paranoid.

I can't really envisage a referendum done with 6 possible scenarios no. Maybe maximum of 3 which could be remain, some form of soft Brexit deal, or no deal.

I do think it would be a good idea though to use the referendum polling process to do a survey just to find out what Brexit supporters have a preference for. Almost like the indicative votes in parliament. Where you can vote for more than on option. It could also be used to ascertain what, if any, version of Brexit would remain supporters go for. If nothing else we would have more idea of what people want, rather than what they don't want. Where have I heard that before.

I don't think there is appetite among parliament, from No Deal Brexit faction, for it to go back to the country. However, as I have said previously, I could imagine a scenario where the options are the ones available based on the indicative votes, which the public decide upon.

 

[Jebus_lives]

I know you have. And I'm saying they should have been because they weren't impartial. They were blatantly biased. As I've posted in this thread multiple times.

You can fact check the government leaflet and most of it stacks up, although there us some interpretation needed. But that doesn't make it biased, it makes it an assessment of the impacts of Brexit. It just so happens that it's correct and also the same information used by Remain.

If anything, the government leaflet, which had to be fact checked and signed off as correct, probably damaged the remain campaign due to be associated with Cameron and Osborne.

 

[Tubey]

I've never said leave supporters weren't bigoted in their views on Brexit. The vast majority of them are, which is why the country is so polarised on the subject.

I've posted lot's on here when I've disagreed with fellow Brexiteers, especially as regards no deal. I've also posted when I've given credit to the EU. Not many maybe but I have done so.

And your last paragraph is just proof in point. They are not the views or reasons of Brexiteers. They are your take on what our views and reasons are, that you then try to pigeon hole. Nobody has tried to understand us. That's just as frustrating to me as I'm sure somebody quoting 52% or "we won" is to you.

I really have. But every time I ask the simple question "tell me why we'll be better off outside the EU", all I get in response is a variation on "taking back control."

So I'll try it with you - why, using provable, concrete facts, will we better off outside the EU? Both economically and politically? Given that every forecast says that we'll take a massive economic hit by leaving and we'll certainly have reduced political clout on the world stage due to not being a leading voice in Europe.

If your response is "I just reckon we will be", which I'm fairly sure it will be, then that's what I 'understood' about the Leave view in the first place. By all means surprise me - I'm extremely interested in the flip side on this and any other issue.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

https://sciencebusiness.net/framewo...s-i-will-fight-having-uk-board-horizon-europe

I'm laying equal odds on "but they hate us..." quickly turning into "of course they want us in, we bankroll it all..."

 

[Barnfred 55]

I don't think there is appetite among parliament, from No Deal Brexit faction, for it to go back to the country. However, as I have said previously, I could imagine a scenario where the options are the ones available based on the indicative votes, which the public decide upon.

I agree with the bold bit. In fact I'd go one step further and say that I don't think there is appetite among parliament for Brexit full stop.

But that isn't the issue here, we're talking about what question will/should go on a second referendum and whether that can be considered fair and democratic. The main problem is almost everyone has their red lines. Everybody talks about the need to make concessions but they all want the opposition to make those concessions. Remain voters want to remain. Leave voters want to leave on their terms. Based on what I have read, heard and people I have spoken to, there is probably less than 10% support for May's deal amongst leave voters. I've read somewhere that 70% of Brexiteers would now take a no deal. Although I've no way of confirming this I'm guessing, again based on what I've read and heard and seen on TV reports and programmes like Question Time, that the figure is not that far away from the truth.

You've already admitted above that you don't see no deal as an option on any peoples confirmatory vote or second referendum. The likelihood based on everything I've seen so far is that it would be a straightforward choice between Remain, and whatever deal is on the table whether it be Mays deal or customs union or whatever. Neither option would carry the support o the vast majority of leave voters.

I know you said that you haven't been side stepping the question, but the fact remains that you still haven't answered it. So I'll ask you again for what must be the fourth or fifth time. Do you believe that a second referendum that alienates and disengages possibly more than 90% of the leave supporting electorate is fair and democratic?

 

[Barnfred 55]

You can fact check the government leaflet and most of it stacks up, although there us some interpretation needed. But that doesn't make it biased, it makes it an assessment of the impacts of Brexit. It just so happens that it's correct and also the same information used by Remain.

If anything, the government leaflet, which had to be fact checked and signed off as correct, probably damaged the remain campaign due to be associated with Cameron and Osborne.

So, a brochure that only quotes the benefits of staying in the EU and the dangers of leaving the EU is unbiased. OK mate you carry on believing that if it helps. All I can say is millions of us saw it for what it was, and had the Govt stayed completely neutral in the build up and issued a neutral information leaflet, then they could very easily have encouraged some to vote remain.