Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Jebus_lives]

I agree with the bold bit. In fact I'd go one step further and say that I don't think there is appetite among parliament for Brexit full stop.

But that isn't the issue here, we're talking about what question will/should go on a second referendum and whether that can be considered fair and democratic. The main problem is almost everyone has their red lines. Everybody talks about the need to make concessions but they all want the opposition to make those concessions. Remain voters want to remain. Leave voters want to leave on their terms. Based on what I have read, heard and people I have spoken to, there is probably less than 10% support for May's deal amongst leave voters. I've read somewhere that 70% of Brexiteers would now take a no deal. Although I've no way of confirming this I'm guessing, again based on what I've read and heard and seen on TV reports and programmes like Question Time, that the figure is not that far away from the truth.

You've already admitted above that you don't see no deal as an option on any peoples confirmatory vote or second referendum. The likelihood based on everything I've seen so far is that it would be a straightforward choice between Remain, and whatever deal is on the table whether it be Mays deal or customs union or whatever. Neither option would carry the support o the vast majority of leave voters.

I know you said that you haven't been side stepping the question, but the fact remains that you still haven't answered it. So I'll ask you again for what must be the fourth or fifth time. Do you believe that a second referendum that alienates and disengages possibly more than 90% of the leave supporting electorate is fair and democratic?

If you read it somewhere you can evidence it. I don't think it's anywhere near as high as that.

 

[Barnfred 55]

But what I cant my head round is why being in the EU somehow dilutes someones patriotism/pride/nationalism. Like, being in the UK doesnt make Welsh or Scots or Irish less patriotic, so why would being in the EU be any different?

I don't think dilute is the right word and isn't one I would have used. And I agree that there is no reason why you can't think of yourself as both British and European, and a lot of the younger generation probably do. But a lot of the older generation don't feel that way and consider themselves British and a lot of those are anti EU.

Do you not think that there is a similarity between, lets say older English people, being anti EU and many Scots and Welsh being anti UK/English.

 

[Jebus_lives]

So, a brochure that only quotes the benefits of staying in the EU and the dangers of leaving the EU is unbiased. OK mate you carry on believing that if it helps. All I can say is millions of us saw it for what it was, and had the Govt stayed completely neutral in the build up and issued a neutral information leaflet, then they could very easily have encouraged some to vote remain.

Thank you for the condescension. The leaflet was the government's assessment and position it took was that remain was in the 'best interests of the people of the UK'. Financially and politically. It didn't have to promote both sides it had to give the government position. It shouldn't give a neutral position, it's the government, it should do what it thinks is in the best interests of the population. There was a Remain Campaign and a Leave Campaign which ran alongside that, which do the job of persuading the electorate to vote in different ways. It just so happens that the population decided it's best interests werent to stay in the EU, even though all of the evidence suggests we are.

 

[roydo]

Yea, one of my best mates is from Watford, he's a big leave voter and we get in to it a bit. He's constantly making this point. He definitely doesnt feel like he can fully express his Englishness, and that's a shame. Unfortunately I think English identity is tied to it's colonial past and there fore is a tricky beast to tame.
Given your countries history, I'm not sure if moderate nationalism/patriotism is an option.
Recently, my buddy from Watford has gone all in with the likes of Tommy Robinson. It's actually sad to see.
I guess Brexit opened up a conversation on nationalism that England wasn't really ready to have.

Its not really something the English embrace that much. Note, English. Never have really. St Patricks day is probably "celebrated" (any excuse for a pint) more than St Georges day is in England.

We dont have an English anthem, and the annual "patriotic" events like the Proms for example are more GB/UK than English. Sport is about the only thing the English unite under. And even then, if England are not playing, most of us happily support the Welsh/Scots/Irish.

London hosted most of the Olympics, but to any English person I know, they were 100% a British success. The only folk I see, outside of sport, that drape themselves in the English flag, are usually under the umbrella of folk I dont like much.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Recently, my buddy from Watford has gone all in with the likes of Tommy Robinson. It's actually sad to see.

That's incredibly sad as you say. Hopefully it doesn't catch on and most will see him for the racist he is. The frightening thing is, if Brexit is overturned, as I fully expect it to be now, I do fear that politics will open up so that far right wingers like this guy will be able to infiltrate mainstream politics.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Thank you for the condescension. The leaflet was the government's assessment and position it took was that remain was in the 'best interests of the people of the UK'. Financially and politically. It didn't have to promote both sides it had to give the government position. It shouldn't give a neutral position, it's the government, it should do what it thinks is in the best interests of the population. There was a Remain Campaign and a Leave Campaign which ran alongside that, which do the job of persuading the electorate to vote in different ways. It just so happens that the population decided it's best interests werent to stay in the EU, even though all of the evidence suggests we are.

Let's leave it there. I'll let you have the last word. I really can't be arsed arguing any more.

I'm off to the Everton thread to chill for a bit. Good job we won yesterday.

 

[roydo]

I don't think dilute is the right word and isn't one I would have used. And I agree that there is no reason why you can't think of yourself as both British and European, and a lot of the younger generation probably do. But a lot of the older generation don't feel that way and consider themselves British and a lot of those are anti EU.

Do you not think that there is a similarity between, lets say older English people, being anti EU and many Scots and Welsh being anti UK/English.

I get where you are coming from, but no, not really. The anti English thing is generally a trumped up affair, usually reserved for the sports fields these days. I have lived bordering Wales for decades, and worked for 20 years for a Scottish company. Outside of sport, never ever experienced any anti English stuff, other than light hearted bantz.

 

[Tubey]

Its not really something the English embrace that much. Note, English. Never have really. St Patricks day is probably "celebrated" (any excuse for a pint) more than St Georges day is in England.

We dont have an English anthem, and the annual "patriotic" events like the Proms for example are more GB/UK than English. Sport is about the only thing the English unite under. And even then, if England are not playing, most of us happily support the Welsh/Scots/Irish.

London hosted most of the Olympics, but to any English person I know, they were 100% a British success. The only folk I see, outside of sport, that drape themselves in the English flag, are usually under the umbrella of folk I dont like much.

There's a superiority complex about English nationalists, and that's the difference. The others - Scotland, Wales etc. - aren't really about being the "best", but being proud of what they are.

It's a throwback to colonialism. A lot of Brexit really is "Britannia rules the waves" - this weird belief that England has a right to dominance and is somehow superior to any other nation. Hence facts don't matter, because they know that England will be great on its' own, as it always has been. We don't need anyone else - but everyone else needs us to be strong.

It's a complete rejection of multinationalism - the belief that we work better when we're working together and not via nation state imperialism. It's a throwback by a good century - just look at Rees-Mogg and how he's somehow popular as evidence of exactly what it's all about.

 

[Jebus_lives]

That's incredibly sad as you say. Hopefully it doesn't catch on and most will see him for the racist he is. The frightening thing is, if Brexit is overturned, as I fully expect it to be now, I do fear that politics will open up so that far right wingers like this guy will be able to infiltrate mainstream politics.

He already has.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yea, one of my best mates is from Watford, he's a big leave voter and we get in to it a bit. He's constantly making this point. He definitely doesnt feel like he can fully express his Englishness, and that's a shame. Unfortunately I think English identity is tied to it's colonial past and there fore is a tricky beast to tame.
Given your countries history, I'm not sure if moderate nationalism/patriotism is an option.
Recently, my buddy from Watford has gone all in with the likes of Tommy Robinson. It's actually sad to see.
I guess Brexit opened up a conversation on nationalism that England wasn't really ready to have.

Which is why 'Englishness' has such a tinge, because so many racist toe rags proudly wave the flag. I suspect this has historic routes, as it's one thing to be patriotic about a country that spent much of its recent history conquering and subjugating other lands, and quite another being patriotic about a country that has been conquered and subjugated.

As an aside, I suspect, and I recall reading surveys to this effect, most Brexiters regard themselves as English, not British.

 

[Tubey]

Which is why 'Englishness' has such a tinge, because so many racist toe rags proudly wave the flag. I suspect this has historic routes, as it's one thing to be patriotic about a country that spent much of its recent history conquering and subjugating other lands, and quite another being patriotic about a country that has been conquered and subjugated.

As an aside, I suspect, and I recall reading surveys to this effect, most Brexiters regard themselves as English, not British.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...me-english-voters-have-diverged-anglo-british

Case in point. Don't give a toss about anything apart from their own misplaced sense of nationalism.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

He already has.

It's driving the key political policy of our generation!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...me-english-voters-have-diverged-anglo-british

Case in point. Don't give a toss about anything apart from their own misplaced sense of nationalism.

It should also be noted that the whole alt-right schtick is the belief that the world should be governed by white men, and that society has deviated from that. You see it in action today with the daft calls for a Lee Rigby day in response to today being Stephen Lawrence day.

 

[Tubey]

It should also be noted that the whole alt-right schtick is the belief that the world should be governed by white men, and that society has deviated from that. You see it in action today with the daft calls for a Lee Rigby day in response to today being Stephen Lawrence day.

To be honest like, neither day should exist.

 

[roydo]

To be honest like, neither day should exist.

Like you, I think, I am not a great one for This Day or That Day. But at least the Stephen Lawrence incident bought to light issues that were ignored/unknown for decades. And there is a legacy his murder still leaves. I hope.

Not sure the same could be said of Lee Rigbys murder. As sad and brutal it evidently was.