Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Barnfred 55]

Let’s be fair mate the remainers are the ones who said this would happen and were repeatedly told it was project fear . It’s May pandering to the ERG and DUP with leavers as Brexit Secretaries who’ve got us here ,

I think it’s tragic and Really worrying . I don’t want what’s happening but I’m not sure how as a leaver that kept saying the border situation was a problem and that I doubted the EU would fold it’s my fault .

Harry, if you look at my post in this thread earlier today you'll see that I am being fair. More than fair. I fully agree that the Govt is mostly to blame and have even outlined this in detail. What I am saying is that you cannot completely absolve the rest of parliament and even the EU from any blame whatsoever. Which is what the poster was doing. He's basically saying that compromise is needed but it's only your side that needs to compromise

You are normally a reasonable poster. Do you agree with him?

 

[Kenshin]

Half the Nation don't matter because of one vote nearly three years ago mate?

52% wanted to leave so no mate. It was a fair vote and one side won.

It's undemocratic to dismiss the majority

Not forgetting the other significant portion of those that voted for Remain.

The point being that:

No one consensus exists around leave does it. Nobody from Leave.EU was suggesting leave with no deal, it was 'we'll get a great deal' 'we hold all the cards' 'easiest deal in history'.

Is there is a consensus among leave voters for one particular route out? Because 'Leave' doesn't really encapsulate the full range of reasons why people wanted out. No deal for leavers, like remain, seems to satisfy nobody.

Leave means no deal though. It meant leave the EU, not keep paying them or stay in everything but name only.

That's what is missed here people didn't vote leave but with a load of clauses, they voted simply leave.

Depends or not if this petition gets to 17 odd million

There isn't a leave petition because they had already won that vote.

Notice the difference there? lol

The only ones signing petitions are the losing side.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Just admit that it was an over generalisation and recognise that i was defending some from blame, rather than casting blame as you accuse. Christ.

Ok, it was a generalisation in that it didn't apportion blame. I agree to that extent. But the rest of parliament, and to a lesser extent the EU too, should not be totally absolved from any blame whatsoever. Your post is basically saying that ALL of the blame is with the govt and the PM. I agree they are without doubt the main culprits here, but to suggest they are 100% culpable is just wrong. That's the reason there is an impasse in parliament, because nobody is prepared to concede on anything. I stand by that view.

 

[Harryflashman]

Harry, if you look at my post in this thread earlier today you'll see that I am being fair. More than fair. I fully agree that the Govt is mostly to blame and have even outlined this in detail. What I am saying is that you cannot completely absolve the rest of parliament and even the EU from any blame whatsoever. Which is what the poster was doing. He's basically saying that compromise is needed but it's only your side that needs to compromise

You are normally a reasonable poster. Do you agree with him?

I think I find it hard to give many in Parliament a free pass if I’m being truthful .

However When it comes to the EU I honestly think they’ve been pretty reasonable . The EU negotiations meant they changed their deal and gave us the backstop to placate May . Then may went back to negotiate the backstop , she’d asked for . Without any alternative . I mean honestly you couldn’t make it up . The EU have rules in place and I’m not sure we could expect them to change them because we want to leave , despite everyone thinking they’d fold .

Time and time again we heard about the German car market . They need us more than we need them , they’ll never let that happen , let me tell you what’ll happen blah blah . The integrity of the single market is key to the EU and they’re protecting it. the safety and security of the Irish/U.K. border is important to them and they’re doing everything they can to ensure it’s not compromised. Whilst on our side we’re paying off politicians with wheelbarrows full of cash to the dup , peerages and knighthoods all over , red lines that mean nothing , deals that can’t be negotiated being negotiated and bringing back a deal that’s failed twice a third time . We’re an absolute laughing stock and I say that as somebody with close friends in three continents and you should see me trying to explain this debacle to them.

The whole situation is beyond parody , I do point the finger at many in Parliament and many outside not excluding the media . The EU I’ll be honest I find significantly less culpable.
.

 

[Harryflashman]

52% wanted to leave so no mate. It was a fair vote and one side won.

It's undemocratic to dismiss the majority


Leave means no deal though. It meant leave the EU, not keep paying them or stay in everything but name only.

That's what is missed here people didn't vote leave but with a load of clauses, they voted simply leave.

There isn't a leave petition because they had already won that vote.

Notice the difference there? lol

The only ones signing petitions are the losing side.

This leave means no deal bit mate I’ve done this several times in this thread , pretty much every leading leave campaigner was arguing the opposite before the referendum. I have and I can again quote a number of them talking about being like Norway , only a madman would leave the single market or saying absolutely nobody is talking about leaving the single market . Now the people saying this weren’t remainers they were the leaders of leave and the only people warning of a no deal were remainers and were dismissed as project fear .

You obviously might have voted for leave with no deal in your mind but you simply can’t say that the other 17.4m did particularly when those campaigning for it weren’t suggesting it . There are leave voters on here that don’t want it , if I’m honest I don’t understand how it’s become the default position

No argument leave won and I’ve acceoted that throughout this debate and not been asking for a peoples vote or second referendum but we are sleepwalking into what 99% of economists and this government consider a disastrous course of action so like many i’m Entitled to be very concerned.

 

[Khalekan]

Harry, if you look at my post in this thread earlier today you'll see that I am being fair. More than fair. I fully agree that the Govt is mostly to blame and have even outlined this in detail. What I am saying is that you cannot completely absolve the rest of parliament and even the EU from any blame whatsoever. Which is what the poster was doing. He's basically saying that compromise is needed but it's only your side that needs to compromise

You are normally a reasonable poster. Do you agree with him?

I fail to see how the EU can be blamed in the slightest.

Just to recap and let me once again state the obvious.

Northern Ireland is totally different from Northern England....or Southern England for that matter....and it required a very different type of Brexit than the rest of us.

At the heart of this crisis is Samuel A Tache and ERG types peddling a fiction that somehow Belfast is no different from Basingstoke nor Derry from Derby.

Not only did the province vote comfortably to stay in the EU, the electoral results there show near enough half the population want their province to leave the UK instead and this is going to become a very big issue in the next decade or so as the birth rates among the nationalist people outstrip those of the unionist and will be increasingly manifesting itself in election results.

The EU recognised this very pertinent fact and offered May a deal, which she readily and sensibly accepted in the autumn of 2017, which gave Northern Ireland the very generous position of remaining in both the EU and the UK.

That offer is still there for the taking.

But because of the Westminster arithmetic the DUP were able to scupper that deal.

So we went back to the drawing board and arrived at where we are today....with the whole of the UK being landed with a deal which was tapered to suit just one region of it.

There is your problem right there, Barney.

It lies amongst what Winston Churchill one described, after WW 1 ended, the “dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone”.



And it is an English engineered problem the Irish have had to deal with decades before the EU was ever dreamed off.

 

[larrygobfiend]

2%

FFS

I remember a conversation I had in a leafy village in North Wales before the referendum... I knew the couple for a while and they came across as very nice and normal with 2 grown up kids... they wanted out because, "there's to many p***** in the country". I've literally never seen an asian person were they live. When I had Facebook, my feed contained plenty of Britain First content shared by the knuckle draggers I knew from school.

I imagine these types of bells made up far more than 2%

Gutted

 

[Barnfred 55]

I think I find it hard to give many in Parliament a free pass if I’m being truthful .

However When it comes to the EU I honestly think they’ve been pretty reasonable . The EU negotiations meant they changed their deal and gave us the backstop to placate May . Then may went back to negotiate the backstop , she’d asked for . Without any alternative . I mean honestly you couldn’t make it up . The EU have rules in place and I’m not sure we could expect them to change them because we want to leave , despite everyone thinking they’d fold .

Time and time again we heard about the German car market . They need us more than we need them , they’ll never let that happen , let me tell you what’ll happen blah blah . The integrity of the single market is key to the EU and they’re protecting it. the safety and security of the Irish/U.K. border is important to them and they’re doing everything they can to ensure it’s not compromised. Whilst on our side we’re paying off politicians with wheelbarrows full of cash to the dup , peerages and knighthoods all over , red lines that mean nothing , deals that can’t be negotiated being negotiated and bringing back a deal that’s failed twice a third time . We’re an absolute laughing stock and I say that as somebody with close friends in three continents and you should see me trying to explain this debacle to them.

The whole situation is beyond parody , I do point the finger at many in Parliament and many outside not excluding the media . The EU I’ll be honest I find significantly less culpable.
.

Mate I have often given the EU credit where it is due in this thread and also try to see things from their point of view. I agree that they have been pretty reasonable at times, and am on record as saying they probably have more to lose than we do with the backstop, which is why I believe they would do their best to negotiate a deal to stop it coming into play. And if it did come into play they would want to get out of it just as much as we do.

But being reasonable doesn't fully absolve them of blame where their actions have helped put us in the position we currently find ourselves. And I'll say again, just for good order, the vast majority of the blame lies with the UK govt and parliament.

An example of what I'm talking about is their insistence from the very outset that they wouldn't be prepared to discuss the future relationship, until the withdrawal agreement has been agreed. If they had allowed a separate negotiation team to discuss this alongside the withdrawal agreement, then perhaps there would be more people in favour of the deal currently on the table, and we wouldn't be facing the precipice. Also, if we're talking about red lines re the govt and other sides of parliament, it's only fair to mention the EUs flat refusal to revisit the withdrawal agreement and, in particular, the backstop.

 

[Aberblue]

2%

FFS

I remember a conversation I had in a leafy village in North Wales before the referendum... I knew the couple for a while and they came across as very nice and normal with 2 grown up kids... they wanted out because, "there's to many p***** in the country". I've literally never seen an asian person were they live. When I had Facebook, my feed contained plenty of Britain First content shared by the knuckle draggers I knew from school.

I imagine these types of bells made up far more than 2%

Gutted

I assume these people meant people of Pakistani origins; since the number of immigrants from Pakistan has got absolutely nothing at all to do with the EU in any concievable way, how could this affect their voting intent? You might as well vote on the basis that the weather's been a bit dodgy recently.

 

[Deleted member 48881]

May rejects revoke article 50 petition despite 2m signatures

Prime minister will ‘not countenance’ cancelling Brexit, says No 10 spokeswoman

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Were people criticising Bercow earlier?

 

[larrygobfiend]

I assume these people meant people of Pakistani origins; since the number of immigrants from Pakistan has got absolutely nothing at all to do with the EU in any concievable way, how could this affect their voting intent? You might as well vote on the basis that the weather's been a bit dodgy recently.

That's what we were/are dealing with I'm afraid.

 

[Deleted member 48881]

 

[Harryflashman]

Mate I have often given the EU credit where it is due in this thread and also try to see things from their point of view. I agree that they have been pretty reasonable at times, and am on record as saying they probably have more to lose than we do with the backstop, which is why I believe they would do their best to negotiate a deal to stop it coming into play. And if it did come into play they would want to get out of it just as much as we do.

But being reasonable doesn't fully absolve them of blame where their actions have helped put us in the position we currently find ourselves. And I'll say again, just for good order, the vast majority of the blame lies with the UK govt and parliament.

An example of what I'm talking about is their insistence from the very outset that they wouldn't be prepared to discuss the future relationship, until the withdrawal agreement has been agreed. If they had allowed a separate negotiation team to discuss this alongside the withdrawal agreement, then perhaps there would be more people in favour of the deal currently on the table, and we wouldn't be facing the precipice. Also, if we're talking about red lines re the govt and other sides of parliament, it's only fair to mention the EUs flat refusal to revisit the withdrawal agreement and, in particular, the backstop.

They came up with a perfectly reasonable solution though , that the north stay in the EU but the position of the Dup meant that couldn’t happen . The one I said in the border thread I didn’t think was perfect but was probably the bear was a border in the sea but again mays red lines prevented it . So the U.K. came up with the backstop and the EU said fair enough . After mays historic defeat she wanted to change it to ‘other arrangements ‘ , now let’s be honest that’s absolutely ridiculous. Because for all the talk of available technology and these fantastic ethereal solutions that’s just words , you can’t expect them to accept a solution that is basically “trust us we’re convinced something will come up” . We wanted them to change it but we offered no alternative. The erg , dup and others have consistently spun the yarn there is a secret solution but when push come to shove it’s nowhere to be seen , liars lying.

I think I’ve we’re talking specifically over the backstop and the republic then I think the EU have been perfectly reasonable I honestly do . Our government and many others on both sides by the way have prevaricated and lies about solutions the EU wouldn’t have it and frankly mate who can blame them.

By the way if you’d told me I’d be arguing for the EU I wouldn’t have believed you but some of the lies out there , I certainly don’t mean you , particularly by politicians are nothing short of despicable.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I fail to see how the EU can be blamed in the slightest.

Just to recap and let me once again state the obvious.

Northern Ireland is totally different from Northern England....or Southern England for that matter....and it required a very different type of Brexit than the rest of us.

At the heart of this crisis is Samuel A Tache and ERG types peddling a fiction that somehow Belfast is no different from Basingstoke nor Derry from Derby.

Not only did the province vote comfortably to stay in the EU, the electoral results there show near enough half the population want their province to leave the UK instead and this is going to become a very big issue in the next decade or so as the birth rates among the nationalist people outstrip those of the unionist and will be increasingly manifesting itself in election results.

The EU recognised this very pertinent fact and offered May a deal, which she readily and sensibly accepted in the autumn of 2017, which gave Northern Ireland the very generous position of remaining in both the EU and the UK.

That offer is still there for the taking.

But because of the Westminster arithmetic the DUP were able to scupper that deal.

So we went back to the drawing board and arrived at where we are today....with the whole of the UK being landed with a deal which was tapered to suit just one region of it.

There is your problem right there, Barney.

It lies amongst what Winston Churchill one described, after WW 1 ended, the “dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone”.



And it is an English engineered problem the Irish have had to deal with decades before the EU was ever dreamed off.

Khal, I'm not going to get involved in the politics of Northern Ireland specifically, as I know little about it and, to be quite honest, it isn't an issue that is close to my heart. Obviously it is with you which is absolutely fine. I have no opinion either way other than I just hope and pray that it doesn't revert back to the troubles and violence of the 70s/80s/90s which resonated around the whole of the UK. If you have read my posts you will know that I have already criticised the DUP for putting politics ahead of the country and also of the govt for allowing this to happen.

Can I also just add that if the opposition were more supportive of May in the autumn of 2017 then the wishes of the 10 DUP MPs would have been completely irrelevant anyway. Nor that of the 70 or so ERG members who seem intent on driving the country to a potentially disastrous no deal Brexit.

I have just done another post on where I think the EU must have some blame. But bear in mind I'm not saying it's all their fault Khal. The vast majority of fault lies with the UK govt and with parliament. I've been quite supportive of the EU in here. Much more so than other any other leave voter I would say. I just don't think they should be completely absolved of blame. But every time I say this people ignore the good things I say and just pick me up on the criticisms. It's almost like the EU is untouchable.