Current Affairs EU In or Out

[davek]

Pretty good overview from Robert Peston on where we are right now with the threat of a long extension hanging over the hard core of Brexiteers and the legal u-turn advice of Cox to come that is designed to whittle away at their numbers even more (the part about a possible Meaningful Vote 3 getting through, but then failing to get its legislation through parliament, is interesting to say the least):

 

[kenada_blue]

against the will of the british parliament, but with the will of the british people.

and i don't understand how this goes against the country's sovereignty?

So... the will of the people is for the EU to not give us an extension to sort a deal out?

Therefore the prospect of automatically leaving with no deal and a mass exodus of business from the UK amongst other things?

I hope it happens. I really do. Because any person who voted to leave has no right to complain afterwards.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

It talks about the principle of consent. You can't change the constitutional position without a referendum. This potentially would.

I'm not sure how the backstop is needed for someone in the UK to continue their right to irish citizenship or irish passports etc. Those rights are clearly not under threat.

Economic divergence does not change the constitutional position in any way, shape, or form. This is stuff Sammy Tache would dream up.

Read the reply again. It is EU citizenship which is under threat, not Irish citizenship.

 

[Jebus_lives]

against the will of the british parliament, but with the will of the british people.

and i don't understand how this goes against the country's sovereignty?

We operate under a parliamentary democracy. The UK had a choice who they wanted to represent them in parliament, both before and after the referendum. Farage is asking Europe to frustrate the will of British parliament and ultimately our democratic system.

It's hardly 'taking back control' and determining our own laws is it?

 

[Barnfred 55]

Imagine a (7 time) unelected MP (who once got less votes than a man dressed as a dolphin) going to the EU and asking a room of foreign politicians to frustrate the will of British parliament. How does that square with your sovereignty @peteblue @Joey66 @Barnfred 55 @Old Blue 2

You really need to stop making assumptions about people voting Brexit having the same opinion as you do. Because we don't.

I think you'll struggle to find many leave supporters who feel in any way aligned to the current will of the UK parliament. In fact I think you'll find that we feel totally betrayed by them.

 

[orchard]

You really need to stop making assumptions about people voting Brexit having the same opinion as you do. Because we don't.

I think you'll struggle to find many leave supporters who feel in any way aligned to the current will of the UK parliament. In fact I think you'll find that we feel totally betrayed by them.

So he can't know, but you do know. Got it mate.

 

[Barnfred 55]

So he can't know, but you do know. Got it mate.

Can you repeat that please, using language that helps me understand what the hell you are on about.

 

[Frang]

Can you repeat that please, using language that helps me understand what the hell you are on about.

its what they do .. patronising.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Can you repeat that please, using language that helps me understand what the hell you are on about.

I believe the gist is that it's not possible for you to know the collective 'will of the people' any more than he, just because you happen to be part of the leave voting camp.

 

[orchard]

Can you repeat that please, using language that helps me understand what the hell you are on about.

Don't be angry, i'm quite happy to oblige.

You seem to be stating that a particular citizen can't possibly understand what a lot of other citizens desire, and yet claim to be able to do so yourself, even though it has proven to be a heavily divergent group.

 

[Jebus_lives]

You really need to stop making assumptions about people voting Brexit having the same opinion as you do. Because we don't.

I think you'll struggle to find many leave supporters who feel in any way aligned to the current will of the UK parliament. In fact I think you'll find that we feel totally betrayed by them.

I included you all as I feel you represent three very different spectrums of leave, not because I presume to know why you voted leave. In fact, I asked you earlier in the thread why you did vote Leave, to which you haven't, as I type this, replied.

On the second point within your reply, it doesn't really matter if you do or not, we don't have direct democracy, it's a parliamentary democracy in the UK. Members represent their constitutes (they aren't a delegate). So I'm slightly confused, constitutionally, given the leave sides (as a broad stroke) championing of sovereignty and democracy, what they actually mean by it?

Because so far what seems to be the case is that leave want democracy, but not parliamentary democracy. They (I mean this as a veiw from within) want the will of the people, but not a second referendum. They want the EU to leave the UK to manage it's own laws, but now are hoping the EU politicians and foreign electorate will frustrate the will of UK parliament (ergo our democracy). They want a sovereign country, while failing to recognise that if you are positioned to make laws within your own country whilst also having a role in shaping laws which govern an entire political and economic Union, you have actually increased your autonomy - although I accept you balance this against your own de jure sovereignty.

Now you might say, the British people want to leave, to which I would say that's not the 'will of the people' fully as only a third voted for Leave and it completely disregards the will of the rest of the country. You might say, parliament isn't representing my interests or the interests of leave - well then why not push for another GE? Tip the balance of parliamentary democracy in favour of leave.

Help me out here, because I'm genuinely struggling to understand what Leave voters now actually want.

 

[orchard]

its what they do .. patronising.

What does the pronoun 'they' refer to?

 

[Jebus_lives]

Don't be angry, i'm quite happy to oblige.

You seem to be stating that a particular citizen can't possibly understand what a lot of other citizens desire, and yet claim to be able to do so yourself, even though it has proven to be a heavily divergent group.

Also I'm not claiming to, my question was an attempt at understanding.

 

[Barnfred 55]

If you don't mind me asking, why did you vote leave initially? What change did you want?

No disrespect mate, but I've done that before on here and you end up being systematically picked apart and having to defend your views to people you don't even know. I have posted a lot in here recently and considerably more about 2 years ago. Feel free to look back over my posts.

But I'd ask why can't you just accept that not all people are the same and respect the fact that some will have different opinions to you. And I'll show you the same courtesy.

Having responded as above to another poster earlier I think it's only fair to say the same to you.

I'm not saying this necessarily applies to you personally, but as soon as I start listing reasons for leaving in here I will be bombarded with posts educating me to the errors of my ways. Guaranteed. It's happened recently when offering my view on control of borders and negotiating trade deals and I've ended up in "discussions" with half a dozen or more all determined to prove me wrong. It all gets very tiresome in the end.

 

[Barnfred 55]

its what they do .. patronising.

Don't I know it.