Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Sorry. I've would be ok with another vote: that is democracy.
OK.

What happens if leave wins again? Would you want another one. And if remain wins, won't the Brexiteers be within their democratic rights to demand a third referendum seeing as you set a precedent with the second. Where do you think it will all end?.

Do you see the problem with another referendum, whatever the outcome it isn't gong to bring the closure some people expect. In my opinion anyway.
 
OK.

What happens if leave wins again? Would you want another one. And if remain wins, won't the Brexiteers be within their democratic rights to demand a third referendum seeing as you set a precedent with the second. Where do you think it will all end?.

Do you see the problem with another referendum, whatever the outcome it isn't gong to bring the closure some people expect. In my opinion anyway.

What would be the question for a third? The first had the original poorly formed binary option, the second would have the negotiated option. Two different questions imo.
 
Fair dos lol It's a bit of a kids book so it's probably quite reflective (of both advocate and critic) if anyone takes it seriously. All it is is an attempt to shoehorn a rather crude and clumsy philosophy into a badly written story. It should be to philosophy what the Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe is to theology, but hey ho.

Sure. It's also by far the most widely read and most influential libertarian text in the last 100 years, and the founding document of American libertarianism.

But, No True Scotsman hey ho.

Amusing though how you've suddenly become so discerning, not long after trying to conflate the Soviet invasion of Prague with anything that anyone anywhere has ever called 'socialist'... :dodgy:

On the first one, I have concerns about how poverty is measured in the UK, as I don't think the relative measure that is commonly deployed is right at all. My brother (in the UK) is technically living in poverty as his income isn't very high, yet lives in a new 2-bed house, drives a sports car with ample gadgets and wotnot. My sister-in-law (in Czech), has 4 people living in a 3-room flat and sleeps under a blanket donated by the Red Cross, yet isn't classified as living in poverty (and incidentally, neither regard themselves as such either).

With your second link, that is highlighting an outcome, where your presumed solution is automatically 'more government'. It's a simplistic answer that allows people who want to have a passing degree of umbrage to satisfy that desire without having to bother themselves in exploring it any further. If it works for you, then by all means.

You are ignorant of the science of poverty. I am not trying to be rude, but there's no other way to say it. The reason why the Resolution Foundation and every other group that takes poverty seriously uses a relative measure is that relative poverty is precisely what causes so much social harm. In fact, the experience of relative poverty in affluent countries is considerably more deleterious to public health than it is in poorer countries. This is why, as I've noted repeatedly, more sophisticated countries than Britain orient their health care programs toward reducing inequality, because it is the root cause of so many health problems, and it is much cheaper and more effective treating these at the source. And it is why your glorified 'but poor people have iphones and flatscreens so they aren't really poor' interpretation is misguided, and entirely irrelevant to a discussion of 'equality of opportunity' - underscoring the point I was making at the outset.

You should listen to this, seriously, and then think carefully about how well the way you presume the world to be aligns with how it actually is.

And as for your second comment, frankly, open your eyes. Food bank use is soaring, especially among people who work. In less than ten years, homelessness is up almost 200%. Wages have been stagnant longer than at any time since Napoleon. The number of people admitted to hospital for malnutrition has doubled in ten years. Malnutrition! In one of the richest societies that has ever existed. Children are turning up to school unwashed, in rags, and hundreds of thousands of them now go without regular meals every summer once school lunches end. Watch this, about how the state does just about everything imaginable to make things more difficult for talented kids in deprived areas, and then try to argue that they have 'equality of opportunity' with the infantile aristocrat Oxbridge toffs like Johnson, Cameron, Osbourne et al who've engineered their hardships, no doubt absent-mindedly on a pub napkin 30 minutes before deadline.

And as for the cute anecdote about your brother, " It's a simplistic answer that allows people who want to avoid even a passing challenge to their ideological orthodoxy to satisfy that desire without having to bother themselves in exploring it any further."

And yes, of course government policy can improve this, because it is precisely government policy which made things so bad, so suddenly, in the first place. Or do you think cuts by up to 70% to local councils at the height of a recession! are unrelated??? Here you'll be tempted to resort to the same false premise you use to discuss the Labour manifesto - ie: everything is very complicated, government can't solve everything, and if each and every line of all 100+ pages does not become literally true within 5 years then the whole thing is discredited. This is basically the rhetorical strawman "even though we have laws and police we still have murders so we should get rid of laws and police", only expressed in earnest. Changing government can make a dramatic difference, especially where the status quo has been as disastrous and malicious as it has been in the UK. Simply restoring investment to pre-2010 levels would deliver an immediate and substantial boost to economic growth and living standards. The issue facing contemporary Britain is not whether government can solve every problem; it is whether or not it should even make an effort to begin with.

And bringing things back on topic, the post below is a good articulation of why liberal remainers two years on are still proving themselves every bit as impervious to experts as any Brexit ultra, and why attempting to reason with them can be no less maddening than conversations with joey or @peteblue . I should know really better by now than to get involved in the first place.
 
We need a political party that is tough on the causes of Brexit. The Independent Group isn’t
https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...y-tough-causes-brexit-independent-group-isn-t
Unless we have politicians who understand the need for radical change, the snake oil sellers who sold us Brexit will happily carry on plying their wares.

I fully share the anguish of so many people over the madness of Brexit. All the evidence points to not leaving the EU, and the reasons given for leaving are generally vague or false. The vote on which this crazy policy is based was deeply flawed. As an economist I can clearly see the damage Brexit is doing, and will do.

While I could see the rationale for Labour’s triangulation strategy over Brexit before and immediately after the 2017 election, it stopped making sense in electoral terms as public opinion began to move during 2018. This is not to mention that its policy often appeared unicorn-lite or, more realistically, close to a policy of Brexit in name only, which only gives away control. Should the new party that will surely follow the formation of the Independent Group, continues to promote a “people’s vote”, it will likely be quite attractive to people like me.

But I’m in the more uncommon position of having been in the similar place twice before in the last decade. The reason is very simple. I have been all my life a macroeconomist, and for the last 20-odd years an academic. That gave me a perspective on 2010 austerity and the 2015 election that was largely absent from the popular debate. As a result, I can see that Brexit was not an isolated event, the result of one bad decision by Cameron, but part of a pattern suggesting deep problems with how UK politics works.

Understandably, most people are against austerity because of the impact it has had on those in need who depend on the NHS, local authority care and the welfare state. They are also now beginning to see its impact on schools, on our justice system and on much more. But that still leaves open the idea that somehow austerity was necessary for the good of the economy as a whole. As Conservative politicians never tire of saying, they came into office in 2010 with the country on the edge of a crisis created by the previous Labour government. As an academic macroeconomist, I know that is completely false.

Pretty much every first year undergraduate textbook tells students why in a recession you need an expansionary monetary and/or fiscal policy and you should ignore the deficit. When interest rates run out of road, as they had in the UK by 2009, then fiscal expansion is vital. One of my own specialist fields is fiscal policy, so I also know that state of the art models also suggest exactly the same thing as the textbooks. The insights of Keynes that have been accepted by most academics ever since remain valid today. It is this received wisdom that the UK followed in 2009 before the Coalition government came into power.

Just as many feel that Brexit makes no sense, I felt that austerity, which started in 2010, went against all our knowledge and evidence. The one doubt I had was that an irrational financial market might suddenly stop buying UK government debt, but this was dispelled when I realised the Bank of England’s unconventional monetary policy of buying government debt to keep interest rates low (Quantitative Easing) would quickly kill any panic. That analysis begins my book based on the blog I started as a result of austerity.

Just as both main political parties now support some sort of Brexit, so both at the time supported austerity. The argument was over how much, how quickly. Neither the Coalition nor the opposition argued for the right policy, which was to delay fiscal consolidation until the recovery was underway and the Bank started raising interest rates. Experts on trade or the EU Brexit negotiations are infrequently heard in the media, but they were almost never seen over austerity.

My point in making these parallels is that evidence-based policy making on major issues didn’t end with Brexit, but six years earlier with austerity. In both cases these are policies that create great harm to all, and acute harm to many. I calculate austerity cost the average household £10,000; the New Economics Foundation, using similar methods get an even larger figure. No government since the war, including those of Thatcher, has embarked on prolonged austerity during an economic recovery, so it is no surprise we had the weakest recovery for centuries.

Brexit is therefore not the exception in a period of otherwise normal government. If you ask why Brexit happened, it was not that David Cameron made one mistake in an otherwise capable period as prime minister. There is evidence that austerity encouraged the growth of Ukip and by implication the Brexit vote. I remember often hearing people in areas that are described as “left behind” dismissing the economic impact of Brexit by saying things could not possibly get worse than they are now. But austerity was not Brexit’s main cause.

To see what the cause was, we need to look at the second period in which I felt similar to how I today feel about Brexit: the run up to the 2015 general election. Political commentators had deduced from polling that the economy was the Conservatives’ strong point, indeed perhaps their only strong point going into that election. To a macroeconomist, that made no sense. Not only had we had the worst recovery for centuries, but real wages had suffered their worst fall since records began. The government extolled record employment growth, but given the slow recovery they were in reality just celebrating the flatlining of UK productivity that was a key factor behind falling real wages.

Economists like David Blanchflower, John Van Reenen and I set out just how bad UK economic performance had been over the previous five years, but once again expertise was ignored. As far as the media were concerned, reducing the deficit had become the most important priority for the economy, and that was how they judged politicians. You will not find that in any textbook either, but the media had either sold or been sold a narrative and they didn’t want to know any different.

That narrative said that the Coalition had brought down the deficit that the previous government had allowed to grow out of control. In reality the worst recession since the Great Depression of the 1930s caused by a Global Financial Crisis had pushed up the deficit, but the media had pushed, or accepted, the idea that the Coalition was clearing up the mess that a profligate Labour government had left. I had written a paper on fiscal policy under the Labour government and there was no way they were profligate, but because Labour didn’t challenge the accusation the media accepted something as true that was obviously false.

The fact that people thought the Conservatives were strong on the economy only confirmed the media’s narrative. In reality, the causality was the other way. There is a growing literature identifying the power the media has to influence elections and shape popular narratives. The 2015 election was a precursor for Brexit in three important ways. First, and most obviously, the media helped elect a Conservative government that was committed to an EU referendum. Second it showed that politicians could tell huge lies and get away with it. Finally it showed the power the media had to influence a popular vote.

Brexit would not have been possible without the UK media. A large part of the press pushed anti-EU propaganda, and the broadcast media balanced the view of the overwhelming majority of experts against the lies of a few. Viewers desperately wanted information, and the broadcast media gave them politicians rather than experts, and balance rather than facts. Fear of immigration was important in deciding how many people voted, and it was the right-wing press that had since the beginning of the century pushed countless negative stories about immigrants. Although austerity may have played a role, it was the media that played the major part in giving us Bexit.

Although the Independent Group (IG) may have a more attractive policy on Brexit, and they will talk the talk on a broken politics, the group is composed of politicians who either believe their government did the right thing over austerity, or who urged accepting Osborne’s policy while in opposition. Deficit obsession is damaging to the economy, but it also shuts the gate to so much else that needs to be done. It means the IG will be unable to undertake the far reaching and radical industrial policy that is needed to tackle the huge regional inequalities within the UK, and help those left behind that voted for Brexit. It means no Green New Deal. Although so far policy lite, they have pledged to keep our current “free media,” which will mean they would do nothing to mend much of our dysfunctional press that acts as a propaganda vehicle for their owners, or a broadcast media that balances truth with lies and is largely expert free.

Brexit was not an aberration in an otherwise well-functioning UK democracy, any more than Trump was in the US. They are symptoms of a deeper malaise. I cannot put it better than Anthony Barnett when he says if all you want to do is stop Brexit and Trump and go back to what you regard as normal, you miss that what was normal led to Brexit and Trump. Unless we have politicians in power who understand the need for radical change, the snake oil sellers who sold us Brexit and US voters Trump will happily carry on plying their wares.
 
Well, here we all are end of February 2019, and the pennies are finally dropping even with European Research Group, there vote splits, and Mays awful deal suddenly looks as near as they get to leaving well to Brexit (once upon a time) pin up boy Rees Mogg. :)
 
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Sure. It's also by far the most widely read and most influential libertarian text in the last 100 years, and the founding document of American libertarianism.

But, No True Scotsman hey ho.

Amusing though how you've suddenly become so discerning, not long after trying to conflate the Soviet invasion of Prague with anything that anyone anywhere has ever called 'socialist'... :dodgy:

Well the Russians regarded themselves as socialists. I'm not sure the Republicans would regard themselves as libertarian. There is a libertarian party in America and it doesn't tend to ever poll very well. Now I've no doubt you'll argue that's a semantic issue, and I wouldn't diminish the impact guys like Milton Friedman have had, both on American politics generally and the Republicans specifically, but then I'd say guys like Milton Friedman are a long way removed from Ayn Rand.

You are ignorant of the science of poverty. I am not trying to be rude, but there's no other way to say it. The reason why the Resolution Foundation and every other group that takes poverty seriously uses a relative measure is that relative poverty is precisely what causes so much social harm. In fact, the experience of relative poverty in affluent countries is considerably more deleterious to public health than it is in poorer countries. This is why, as I've noted repeatedly, more sophisticated countries than Britain orient their health care programs toward reducing inequality, because it is the root cause of so many health problems, and it is much cheaper and more effective treating these at the source. And it is why your glorified 'but poor people have iphones and flatscreens so they aren't really poor' interpretation is misguided, and entirely irrelevant to a discussion of 'equality of opportunity' - underscoring the point I was making at the outset.

Okay, what you've just done there is repeated that you think it (relative poverty) is more important than absolute poverty, without shedding any light on why that is. You say it causes social harm, but why does it? I have absolutely no idea how much my neighbours earn or don't earn, so what does my wealth relative to them have to say about my ability to buy groceries each week?

You should listen to this, seriously, and then think carefully about how well the way you presume the world to be aligns with how it actually is.

And as for your second comment, frankly, open your eyes. Food bank use is soaring, especially among people who work. In less than ten years, homelessness is up almost 200%. Wages have been stagnant longer than at any time since Napoleon. The number of people admitted to hospital for malnutrition has doubled in ten years. Malnutrition! In one of the richest societies that has ever existed. Children are turning up to school unwashed, in rags, and hundreds of thousands of them now go without regular meals every summer once school lunches end.

Once again however, you're citing symptoms, not causes. I was having a discussion with someone the other day about this, and worked out that you can get a kg of pasta, rice and oats, 2.5kg of potatoes, a loaf of bread, 10 eggs, half a dozen apples and bananas for under £8 (that's a simple search on Tesco). Healthy food isn't expensive, and whilst that lot wouldn't give you an especially exciting diet, it would feed you pretty comfortably for a week. Likewise it's been widely reported how cheap clothes are these days in our 'fast fashion' world. Supply doesn't seem to be the problem, so what is? You suggest that I'm ignorant of the science of poverty, and perhaps that is true, but all you've done here is explain stuff that's happening without explaining why it's happening or what should be done about it.

For what it's worth, my wife works with a great many poor families in our borough, so has a lot more knowledge on this than both of us blowhards put together. She says repeatedly that in a great many instances, a lack of money is not so much of an issue as a lack of skills. Parents will buy takeaways to feed their children rather than cook from the cheap staple foods, and obviously takeaways are expensive so less food is provided. There is a course run by the dietitian team here for eating well on a budget, and they make it a communal thing so you're not only cooking together but eating together as well. It's usually full of people, but it's not a program that's widely deployed to the best of my (her) knowledge, but even with that, it's filling in a gap in knowledge that was perhaps previously passed down through the generations. Has that link been broken, and if so, why?

Watch this, about how the state does just about everything imaginable to make things more difficult for talented kids in deprived areas, and then try to argue that they have 'equality of opportunity' with the infantile aristocrat Oxbridge toffs like Johnson, Cameron, Osbourne et al who've engineered their hardships, no doubt absent-mindedly on a pub napkin 30 minutes before deadline.

Again, I don't doubt that hurdles exist, and that wealth does make life considerably easier for people, but that's life in many ways, some folk will always have a better chance in life than others. We're basically talking about whether people have a good enough opportunity in life, as even two generations of free state schooling, free university education and so on haven't made much of a dent in inequality or social mobility because there are many other factors involved, not least the quality of parenting children are exposed to. You think I use complexity to dismiss things and dismiss even trying, but all I'm saying is that these things are not as simple to solve as just throwing more money at them. It's akin to what William Easterly referred to as the white man's burden in an aid context, as well meaning liberals like you and I would fly in with our cash and grand ideas designed from afar and achieve the square root of bugger all.

We are a bit off topic, but it is nonetheless true to a large extent, otherwise having a lifelong socialist like Dennis Skinner representing one's community would have had a slightly better impact than all his effort resulting in Sports Direct being the biggest employer. If we are to help communities that are struggling then simple rhetoric doesn't really cut it.
 
Well the Russians regarded themselves as socialists. I'm not sure the Republicans would regard themselves as libertarian. There is a libertarian party in America and it doesn't tend to ever poll very well. Now I've no doubt you'll argue that's a semantic issue, and I wouldn't diminish the impact guys like Milton Friedman have had, both on American politics generally and the Republicans specifically, but then I'd say guys like Milton Friedman are a long way removed from Ayn Rand.



Okay, what you've just done there is repeated that you think it (relative poverty) is more important than absolute poverty, without shedding any light on why that is. You say it causes social harm, but why does it? I have absolutely no idea how much my neighbours earn or don't earn, so what does my wealth relative to them have to say about my ability to buy groceries each week?



Once again however, you're citing symptoms, not causes. I was having a discussion with someone the other day about this, and worked out that you can get a kg of pasta, rice and oats, 2.5kg of potatoes, a loaf of bread, 10 eggs, half a dozen apples and bananas for under £8 (that's a simple search on Tesco). Healthy food isn't expensive, and whilst that lot wouldn't give you an especially exciting diet, it would feed you pretty comfortably for a week. Likewise it's been widely reported how cheap clothes are these days in our 'fast fashion' world. Supply doesn't seem to be the problem, so what is? You suggest that I'm ignorant of the science of poverty, and perhaps that is true, but all you've done here is explain stuff that's happening without explaining why it's happening or what should be done about it.

For what it's worth, my wife works with a great many poor families in our borough, so has a lot more knowledge on this than both of us blowhards put together. She says repeatedly that in a great many instances, a lack of money is not so much of an issue as a lack of skills. Parents will buy takeaways to feed their children rather than cook from the cheap staple foods, and obviously takeaways are expensive so less food is provided. There is a course run by the dietitian team here for eating well on a budget, and they make it a communal thing so you're not only cooking together but eating together as well. It's usually full of people, but it's not a program that's widely deployed to the best of my (her) knowledge, but even with that, it's filling in a gap in knowledge that was perhaps previously passed down through the generations. Has that link been broken, and if so, why?



Again, I don't doubt that hurdles exist, and that wealth does make life considerably easier for people, but that's life in many ways, some folk will always have a better chance in life than others. We're basically talking about whether people have a good enough opportunity in life, as even two generations of free state schooling, free university education and so on haven't made much of a dent in inequality or social mobility because there are many other factors involved, not least the quality of parenting children are exposed to. You think I use complexity to dismiss things and dismiss even trying, but all I'm saying is that these things are not as simple to solve as just throwing more money at them. It's akin to what William Easterly referred to as the white man's burden in an aid context, as well meaning liberals like you and I would fly in with our cash and grand ideas designed from afar and achieve the square root of bugger all.

We are a bit off topic, but it is nonetheless true to a large extent, otherwise having a lifelong socialist like Dennis Skinner representing one's community would have had a slightly better impact than all his effort resulting in Sports Direct being the biggest employer. If we are to help communities that are struggling then simple rhetoric doesn't really cut it.

please listen to the podcast link I provided, and then if you like we can try to further the conversation. i do not have time to keep writing essays for you, which you don't properly read.

yes, obviously better eating habits will do wonders. has gutting local councils and leaving things to market forces helped? no, it has not:
https://www.theguardian.com/society...-uk-residents-live-in-food-deserts-says-study

you are being willfully ignorant about the benefits that smart government policy can deliver, and how substantial the impact would be in a place as poorly run has Britain has been for at least the last decade.
 
please listen to the podcast link I provided, and then if you like we can try to further the conversation. i do not have time to keep writing essays for you, which you don't properly read.

yes, obviously better eating habits will do wonders. has gutting local councils and leaving things to market forces helped? no, it has not:
https://www.theguardian.com/society...-uk-residents-live-in-food-deserts-says-study

you are being willfully ignorant about the benefits that smart government policy can deliver, and how substantial the impact would be in a place as poorly run has Britain has been for at least the last decade.

I'll tell the missus that an academic knows more about the lives of her families than she does ;-) She'll be pleased. She works in social care so probably has more knowledge of both the impact of local government cuts on service levels and subsequently on her community than both of us combined. I can listen to a podcast rather than talk to her at mealtimes though :-)
 
I'll tell the missus that an academic knows more about the lives of her families than she does ;-) She'll be pleased. She works in social care so probably has more knowledge of both the impact of local government cuts on service levels and subsequently on her community than both of us combined. I can listen to a podcast rather than talk to her at mealtimes though :)

well at least now I feel better about comparing you to joey and @peteblue

edit: and since you're likewise sick of 'experts', and prefer to horse-trade self-serving anecdotes, my wife works for a trust which helps refugees settle in the area, and every day learns about programs that once worked extremely well but were scrapped due to austerity.
 
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I'll tell the missus that an academic knows more about the lives of her families than she does ;-) She'll be pleased. She works in social care so probably has more knowledge of both the impact of local government cuts on service levels and subsequently on her community than both of us combined. I can listen to a podcast rather than talk to her at mealtimes though :)
She may well be the authority on her own circumstances, but it doesn't give her any greater insight into the wider social political environment that affect others.

Coincidentally, I slept under a Røde Kors blanket for about 18 months, in a 3 bed house with 4 people living in it. I was in no way in poverty.
 
well at least now I feel better about comparing you to joey and @peteblue

edit: and since you're likewise sick of 'experts', and prefer to horse-trade self-serving anecdotes, my wife works for a trust which helps refugees settle in the area, and every day learns about programs that once worked extremely well but were scrapped due to austerity.

You see, the problem is that you believe your answers are the only ones and therefore dismiss everyone else. A big part of my work is around behaviour change, and whilst it's not in any way related to poverty, I have nonetheless explored the likes of Jerry and Monique Sternin, William Easterly and CK Prahalad simply because they're interesting. It's very easy for folk to believe that anyone that doesn't agree with their prescribed medicine is some uncaring brute, when in reality they can simply have a different way of cracking the nut. I'm fairly confident in the research I've done and that it exceeds that Joe et al have brought to the table, and when I get some time one evening I'll endeavour to listen to your podcast. Hopefully when you equally find some time you'll answer the questions I asked (in an erstwhile attempt to understand) rather than deploy the Pete defense of "read the podcast".
 
She may well be the authority on her own circumstances, but it doesn't give her any greater insight into the wider social political environment that affect others.

Coincidentally, I slept under a Røde Kors blanket for about 18 months, in a 3 bed house with 4 people living in it. I was in no way in poverty.

No, but she is someone who takes a great deal of pride in her work so reads up very widely on it. This isn't just her anecdotal experience but rather a combination of her academic research and professional experience. As both of these far outweigh what knowledge on the topic I can bring to the table (and I suspect @abelard too), then I take on board what she says on the matter. It's quite possible to take people's perspectives on board without regarding it as the only truth, the sole truth and so help you god.
 
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