Current Affairs EU In or Out

[davids]

I'm always amused by the Leave sides fear of the idea of a European Army.Coming under the umbrella of the French nuclear deterrent would save a fortune upgrading Trident and come to think of it swap HS2 for proven TGV and there's another boost to the balance sheet.

 

[abelard]

@abelard is a smashing bloke

That's far too generous. Online, I'm a bit of a b@stard.

 

[edge]

I fully agree we are in a mess Bruce. But that is not the fault of the electorate whether they voted to remain or leave, it is the fault of the politicians, both in the UK and in Europe to be fair. At least in Europe the politicians got together first to form a united front with a proper plan, which put them on the front foot in the negotiations from the outset, whilst our politicians bickered and argued and took out court actions.

But that doesn't give anybody the right to exclude a large portion of the electorate the opportunity to vote for what they want in a second referendum. How would you feel if Parliament passed a motion to exclude the option of revoking article 50. By your argument the option of remain would have to be excluded from any second referendum.

I actually don't want a second referendum because I don't think it will solve anything, and I fully that's a personal view and many would disagree with me. But if we have one the questions would have to be

Remain
Accept May's deal
Do not accept May's deal but still want to leave

Anything else would be undemocratic. That's not just an opinion, that's a fact.

We could have further one stay but with new conditions , say opt out of the posted workers directive instance.
The stay or leave with may's deal wouldn't really offer anything to leave voters,
stay or leave in name only ?
It would only make sense to put caveats with on staying, otherwise its just ignoring the concerns of those that want to leave for whatever reason that might be,that caused the vote in the first place.
It should in the interest of fairness and balance be, if leave voters can only leave under certain circumstances so we should stay only in certain circumstances .

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That's far too generous. Online, I'm a bit of a b@stard.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I feel as though I was given more information regarding May's proposals in that short video than I've ever had from UK politicians or press. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

Around about 5.40 was the most interesting. Confirmation that the back stop includes the whole of the UK staying in the customs union. I brought this up recently and was assured by one of our members that it applied to Northern Ireland only, which I personally didn't think was workable. Just proves that some people on here, despite being totally adamant on the subject, are not always as well informed as they think they are.

I'll happily bow to your greater knowledge on this Bruce, but can you confirm that, as part of the backstop, the UK will remain part of the customs union and Northern Ireland a member of the single market. As regards free movement of people, this would be applicable in Northern Ireland but not in the rest of the UK.

Thanks.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I feel as though I was given more information regarding May's proposals in that short video than I've ever had from UK politicians or press. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

Around about 5.40 was the most interesting. Confirmation that the back stop includes the whole of the UK staying in the customs union. I brought this up recently and was assured by one of our members that it applied to Northern Ireland only, which I personally didn't think was workable. Just proves that some people on here, despite being totally adamant on the subject, are not always as well informed as they think they are.

I'll happily bow to your greater knowledge on this Bruce, but can you confirm that, as part of the backstop, the UK will remain part of the customs union and Northern Ireland a member of the single market. As regards free movement of people, this would be applicable in Northern Ireland but not in the rest of the UK.

Thanks.

I've no idea to be honest. The Ireland issue doesn't really interest me a great deal so I couldn't tell you the first thing about it.

 

[Jebus_lives]

I wouldn't wash the electorate's hands completely of this, as the lack of knowledge that underpinned many people's votes was tremendous. If nothing else, you would hope the past few years have meant an increased level of awareness on the issues around this topic, which you would hope would make people more informed, and yet the polls suggest a good number would still gladly opt for no deal, which is frankly staggering.

I'm no fan of referendums as I'm not sure that the public are in any position to make an informed choice on these sort of matters. I mean if we did have a second referendum with May's deal on the ballot, I suspect the proportion of voters who would actually read her deal in full would be very low indeed, in which case how can you vote on it?

It's sadly difficult to see a way out of this that isn't going to be damaging, but listening to people like May and Leadsom chills me to the bone. You sense with the likes of Hunt and Johnson that they're just knobheads, but May is coming across positively unhinged lately and it's very disturbing.

This is not a failure of people this is a failure of communication by Remain advocates.

While I profoundly disagree with the referendum, I also accept it in that it was the majority rule (regardless of if people voted for a variety of reasons) you don't just demand a decision changes because you don't agree with it.
However, I do think that now, given the full range of possibilities on the table you can make a good argument for asking the opinion to consider 3 options - May's Deal, remain or no deal.

 

[Anders_Limpar]

I feel as though I was given more information regarding May's proposals in that short video than I've ever had from UK politicians or press. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

Around about 5.40 was the most interesting. Confirmation that the back stop includes the whole of the UK staying in the customs union. I brought this up recently and was assured by one of our members that it applied to Northern Ireland only, which I personally didn't think was workable. Just proves that some people on here, despite being totally adamant on the subject, are not always as well informed as they think they are.

I'll happily bow to your greater knowledge on this Bruce, but can you confirm that, as part of the backstop, the UK will remain part of the customs union and Northern Ireland a member of the single market. As regards free movement of people, this would be applicable in Northern Ireland but not in the rest of the UK.

Thanks.

Yes, effectively. Although they have called this a new U.K. wide ‘aligned’ customs union that would end whenever the U.K. and the EU see fit.

Don’t think many people were too confused about this, as the customs union issue is the reason why the ERG hate the backstop and have refused to vote for May’s deal. They hate the idea of a customs union, as that means all their dreams of deregulation go up in smoke. They couldn’t give a hoot about a sea border between the island of Ireland and the rest of the U.K. which also occurs in the back stop as northern island is also ‘effectively’ in the single market.

The bbc have done a pretty straight forward page on how it works:

Brexit: What are the backstop options?

What are the plans to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after Brexit?

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Barnfred 55]

I wouldn't wash the electorate's hands completely of this, as the lack of knowledge that underpinned many people's votes was tremendous. If nothing else, you would hope the past few years have meant an increased level of awareness on the issues around this topic, which you would hope would make people more informed, and yet the polls suggest a good number would still gladly opt for no deal, which is frankly staggering.
I don't know how you can make that assumption with such certainty Bruce. Most people I know who voted leave are intelligent people who were pretty well informed, albeit not experts. Yes there will be those that were racially motivated to vote leave, which I find ironic as restrictions on European movement would have opened the door to increased immigration from the rest of the world, to races they would most likely find even more objectionable than Europeans.

But even if there was a large element of ignorance, do you not think it was the Governments duty, having effectively delegated responsibility, to ensure they had the tools to make an informed choice. I've said before, rather than put their weight behind remain, they would have been better employed trying to appear neutral and using their "campaign" funds towards producing a detailed brochure detailing the potential benefits and pitfalls of both sides.

I actually don't think there are that many people who want, or would "gladly opt" for a no deal. Although I concede that there are probably quite a few that would see it as preferable to remain. There is a difference but I guess it's all the same to you.
I'm no fan of referendums as I'm not sure that the public are in any position to make an informed choice on these sort of matters. I mean if we did have a second referendum with May's deal on the ballot, I suspect the proportion of voters who would actually read her deal in full would be very low indeed, in which case how can you vote on it?
Have you read it yourself?. I know I haven't and don't intend to. I'd rather somebody else do so and bulletin the main points. And therein lies the probem as the summaries all come with a biased edge, either for or against.
It's sadly difficult to see a way out of this that isn't going to be damaging, but listening to people like May and Leadsom chills me to the bone. You sense with the likes of Hunt and Johnson that they're just knobheads, but May is coming across positively unhinged lately and it's very disturbing.
I think she's been totally incompetent from the outset, but I still feel a bit sorry for her somehow. She's been let down by her own MPs and publically ridiculed at times in Europe which hasn't helped. I think Brexit has all but destroyed her and wouldn't be surprised if she retired from politics altogether before the next general election, which may not be that far away.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Uh oh

 

[Barnfred 55]

Yes, effectively. Although they have called this a new U.K. wide ‘aligned’ customs union that would end whenever the U.K. and the EU see fit.

Don’t think many people were too confused about this, as the customs union issue is the reason why the ERG hate the backstop and have refused to vote for May’s deal. They hate the idea of a customs union, as that means all their dreams of deregulation go up in smoke. They couldn’t give a hoot about a sea border between the island of Ireland and the rest of the U.K. which also occurs in the back stop as northern island is also ‘effectively’ in the single market.

The bbc have done a pretty straight forward page on how it works:

Brexit: What are the backstop options?

What are the plans to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after Brexit?

www.bbc.co.uk

The point I was making was that was my initial understanding too, until somebody on here insisted it only applied to Northern Ireland. And nobody else on here contradicted him.

That's why I found it interesting.

 

[Frang]

can we re-name this thread, the @Bruce Wayne doesn't like Brexit thread..

 

[Jebus_lives]

I feel as though I was given more information regarding May's proposals in that short video than I've ever had from UK politicians or press. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

Around about 5.40 was the most interesting. Confirmation that the back stop includes the whole of the UK staying in the customs union. I brought this up recently and was assured by one of our members that it applied to Northern Ireland only, which I personally didn't think was workable. Just proves that some people on here, despite being totally adamant on the subject, are not always as well informed as they think they are.

I'll happily bow to your greater knowledge on this Bruce, but can you confirm that, as part of the backstop, the UK will remain part of the customs union and Northern Ireland a member of the single market. As regards free movement of people, this would be applicable in Northern Ireland but not in the rest of the UK.

Thanks.

I don't think most people have read it - including most politicians and reporters.

It's not surprising given that it's about 600 pages long, but you feel that if it's your job to be aware of these things, then it's pretty important.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Thing is they didn't ask the UK to leave,the mess is purely a UK construct.

I'm not saying they have been equally at fault, but they can't be totally exonerated either.

They could have prevented the referendum altogether had they shown more sympathy/empathy to Cameron's request for concessions. From memory what he was asking for wasn't that excessive. The problem was, I think, nobody expected the people to vote to leave. Had they thought this was a real threat I'm sure they would have been more accommodating.

Secondly their insistence on sorting out the divorce settlement first before even starting discussing on future agreements. Even if they didn't want to discuss together there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been holding separate talks simultaneously.

Also, some of the comments and statements coming from senior European politicians have stoked the ill feeling that many Britains towards the EU.

These are just off the top of my head mate. As I say, I'm not trying to lay all of the blame with them.

 

[Jebus_lives]

I'm not saying they have been equally at fault, but they can't be totally exonerated either.

They could have prevented the referendum altogether had they shown more sympathy/empathy to Cameron's request for concessions. From memory what he was asking for wasn't that excessive. The problem was, I think, nobody expected the people to vote to leave. Had they thought this was a real threat I'm sure they would have been more accommodating.

Secondly their insistence on sorting out the divorce settlement first before even starting discussing on future agreements. Even if they didn't want to discuss together there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been holding separate talks simultaneously.

Also, some of the comments and statements coming from senior European politicians have stoked the ill feeling that many Britains towards the EU.

These are just off the top of my head mate. As I say, I'm not trying to lay all of the blame with them.

It's an odd circumstance when the left wing are the ones advocating on behalf of the EU. I'm not great fan of the EU, I just think that it's most financially sound to stay in that remove yourself from it when almost all of your business and infrastructure relies upon it's systems.