Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

 

[Jebus_lives]

Back on topic

He's exactly right.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

He's exactly right.

Of course, and the comparison is all the starker when you hear people like Sabine Weyand speak so eloquently and coherently and then compare her with the clowns we have representing Britain.

 

[Barnfred 55]

What would be the question for a third? The first had the original poorly formed binary option, the second would have the negotiated option. Two different questions imo.

Actually, one of the questions I originally asked of the poster which remains unanswered was, "What questions/options would you want to see on the second referendum?". So I'll ask the same of you Bruce. What would you want to see on the second referendum?

 

[Barnfred 55]

You see, the problem is that you believe your answers are the only ones and therefore dismiss everyone else. A big part of my work is around behaviour change, and whilst it's not in any way related to poverty, I have nonetheless explored the likes of Jerry and Monique Sternin, William Easterly and CK Prahalad simply because they're interesting. It's very easy for folk to believe that anyone that doesn't agree with their prescribed medicine is some uncaring brute, when in reality they can simply have a different way of cracking the nut. I'm fairly confident in the research I've done and that it exceeds that Joe et al have brought to the table, and when I get some time one evening I'll endeavour to listen to your podcast. Hopefully when you equally find some time you'll answer the questions I asked (in an erstwhile attempt to understand) rather than deploy the Pete defense of "read the podcast".

I have enjoyed reading this mornings exchanges between yourself and @abelard Bruce. I actually think the two of you are very similar, you just have opposing opinions. Many times I've seen you behave in much the same way in this very thread dismissing the views of anybody who voted to leave.lol

In this regard I'm very much in your camp. In fact on the whole, I probably agree with the majority of your posts; it's probably only Brexit where we differ.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Actually, one of the questions I originally asked of the poster which remains unanswered was, "What questions/options would you want to see on the second referendum?". So I'll ask the same of you Bruce. What would you want to see on the second referendum?

Assuming parliament show a scrap of common sense and remove no deal from the equation, it would be between the negotiated deal (May's deal) and scrapping the whole thing.

As the video I highlighted earlier emphasised, parliament rejected May's deal for a whole bunch of different reasons, so getting something that appeals to everyone is likely to be impossible, but that is the deal we have. It's not up for further negotiation, so we decide if we're going to take it or not. Simple as that.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Assuming parliament show a scrap of common sense and remove no deal from the equation, it would be between the negotiated deal (May's deal) and scrapping the whole thing.

As the video I highlighted earlier emphasised, parliament rejected May's deal for a whole bunch of different reasons, so getting something that appeals to everyone is likely to be impossible, but that is the deal we have. It's not up for further negotiation, so we decide if we're going to take it or not. Simple as that.

But that doesn't cater for the people who still want to leave but don't want to support May's deal. Do we just ignore that section of the electorate? Is that what you call democracy?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I have enjoyed reading this mornings exchanges between yourself and @abelard Bruce. I actually think the two of you are very similar, you just have opposing opinions. Many times I've seen you behave in much the same way in this very thread dismissing the views of anybody who voted to leave.lol

In this regard I'm very much in your camp. In fact on the whole, I probably agree with the majority of your posts; it's probably only Brexit where we differ.

@abelard is a smashing bloke and I like to think his years of indoctrination by the Economist do give us at least some common ground

Re your third sentence, undoubtedly guilty as charged. As Leonardo famously said, the greatest deception men suffer from is their own opinions.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

But that doesn't cater for the people who still want to leave but don't want to support May's deal. Do we just ignore that section of the electorate? Is that what you call democracy?

It's a mess, without doubt, but I'm not sure what the alternative is. Among leave voters you probably have those who want a no deal, those who want a Norway style arrangement, those who back May's deal, those who want one of a multitude of different forms of Brexit. Inevitably by choosing one form, you're not catering for all of those who would prefer another (or no Brexit at all). So even if we rejected May's deal and went around again, we'd still return to the same point.

As Sabine said earlier, whilst the idiots from the Tory party like to create hate and division, among the civil servants actually negotiating Brexit (on both sides) I'm sure there is no animosity and no desire to screw one another over. What has been negotiated is the best that could be come up with. It seems that parliament will either back that deal or they won't, and it's that latter scenario that we're discussing here. What do we do if parliament rejects May's deal (again)?

 

[Jebus_lives]

It's a mess, without doubt, but I'm not sure what the alternative is. Among leave voters you probably have those who want a no deal, those who want a Norway style arrangement, those who back May's deal, those who want one of a multitude of different forms of Brexit. Inevitably by choosing one form, you're not catering for all of those who would prefer another (or no Brexit at all). So even if we rejected May's deal and went around again, we'd still return to the same point.

As Sabine said earlier, whilst the idiots from the Tory party like to create hate and division, among the civil servants actually negotiating Brexit (on both sides) I'm sure there is no animosity and no desire to screw one another over. What has been negotiated is the best that could be come up with. It seems that parliament will either back that deal or they won't, and it's that latter scenario that we're discussing here. What do we do if parliament rejects May's deal (again)?

Three options in reality:

May's Deal, No Deal or Remain.

Only the absolute lunatics and disaster capitalists want no deal.

May's deal had already been rejected. Ironically it would likely leave us in the position that Brexiteers were misrepresentating we were in before the referendum.

Remain?

 

[Barnfred 55]

It's a mess, without doubt, but I'm not sure what the alternative is. Among leave voters you probably have those who want a no deal, those who want a Norway style arrangement, those who back May's deal, those who want one of a multitude of different forms of Brexit. Inevitably by choosing one form, you're not catering for all of those who would prefer another (or no Brexit at all). So even if we rejected May's deal and went around again, we'd still return to the same point.

As Sabine said earlier, whilst the idiots from the Tory party like to create hate and division, among the civil servants actually negotiating Brexit (on both sides) I'm sure there is no animosity and no desire to screw one another over. What has been negotiated is the best that could be come up with. It seems that parliament will either back that deal or they won't, and it's that latter scenario that we're discussing here. What do we do if parliament rejects May's deal (again)?

I fully agree we are in a mess Bruce. But that is not the fault of the electorate whether they voted to remain or leave, it is the fault of the politicians, both in the UK and in Europe to be fair. At least in Europe the politicians got together first to form a united front with a proper plan, which put them on the front foot in the negotiations from the outset, whilst our politicians bickered and argued and took out court actions.

But that doesn't give anybody the right to exclude a large portion of the electorate the opportunity to vote for what they want in a second referendum. How would you feel if Parliament passed a motion to exclude the option of revoking article 50. By your argument the option of remain would have to be excluded from any second referendum.

I actually don't want a second referendum because I don't think it will solve anything, and I fully that's a personal view and many would disagree with me. But if we have one the questions would have to be

Remain
Accept May's deal
Do not accept May's deal but still want to leave

Anything else would be undemocratic. That's not just an opinion, that's a fact.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Three options in reality:

May's Deal, No Deal or Remain.

Only the absolute lunatics and disaster capitalists want no deal.

May's deal had already been rejected. Ironically it would likely leave us in the position that Brexiteers were misrepresentating we were in before the referendum.

Remain?

I agree that they are the likely options on the table. I don't like any of them. But if we had a second referendum all 3 options need to be on the table to make it truly democratic. Do you agree?

 

[Jebus_lives]

I agree that they are the likely options on the table. I don't like any of them. But if we had a second referendum all 3 options need to be on the table to make it truly democratic. Do you agree?

I agree I think that's the only option at present if you are to have a second referendum.

I'm conflicted over a second referendum in the first place as I don't think it is particularly Democratic (in that you rule by majority). But, where the level of informed debate was so low, completely bereft of any sensible debate, in all corners, it's hard to take the result of the referendum seriously and as stated previously, had it been binding, it would have been void.

 

[davids]

I fully agree we are in a mess Bruce. But that is not the fault of the electorate whether they voted to remain or leave, it is the fault of the politicians, both in the UK and in Europe to be fair.

Thing is they didn't ask the UK to leave,the mess is purely a UK construct.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I fully agree we are in a mess Bruce. But that is not the fault of the electorate whether they voted to remain or leave, it is the fault of the politicians, both in the UK and in Europe to be fair. At least in Europe the politicians got together first to form a united front with a proper plan, which put them on the front foot in the negotiations from the outset, whilst our politicians bickered and argued and took out court actions.

But that doesn't give anybody the right to exclude a large portion of the electorate the opportunity to vote for what they want in a second referendum. How would you feel if Parliament passed a motion to exclude the option of revoking article 50. By your argument the option of remain would have to be excluded from any second referendum.

I actually don't want a second referendum because I don't think it will solve anything, and I fully that's a personal view and many would disagree with me. But if we have one the questions would have to be

Remain
Accept May's deal
Do not accept May's deal but still want to leave

Anything else would be undemocratic. That's not just an opinion, that's a fact.

I wouldn't wash the electorate's hands completely of this, as the lack of knowledge that underpinned many people's votes was tremendous. If nothing else, you would hope the past few years have meant an increased level of awareness on the issues around this topic, which you would hope would make people more informed, and yet the polls suggest a good number would still gladly opt for no deal, which is frankly staggering.

I'm no fan of referendums as I'm not sure that the public are in any position to make an informed choice on these sort of matters. I mean if we did have a second referendum with May's deal on the ballot, I suspect the proportion of voters who would actually read her deal in full would be very low indeed, in which case how can you vote on it?

It's sadly difficult to see a way out of this that isn't going to be damaging, but listening to people like May and Leadsom chills me to the bone. You sense with the likes of Hunt and Johnson that they're just knobheads, but May is coming across positively unhinged lately and it's very disturbing.