Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

Ok, Autarky. Whatever! But I was half joking, and it is something I do call right wing Tories such as ERG (economic fascists), marrying the love of wealth and the desire for individualism, over everything.

There's nothing strictly speaking in libertarian philosophy that says you have to be an uncharitable tit, it's largely more a belief that people are more effective when working of their own volition than a state doing so on their behalf. The argument from the left has always been that people aren't able to look after their neighbours, hence we need the state to do so for us. I suspect, as with most things, the reality is that whichever political ideology you have, you'll find good folk and utter tossers. Such is life.

 

[abelard]

There's nothing strictly speaking in libertarian philosophy that says you have to be an uncharitable tit

have you read Ayn Rand?

 

[Jebus_lives]

Steve Bannon seems to be doing a lot of traveling recently, don't think he's going to change into a convivial old man any time soon.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

There's nothing strictly speaking in libertarian philosophy that says you have to be an uncharitable tit, it's largely more a belief that people are more effective when working of their own volition than a state doing so on their behalf. The argument from the left has always been that people aren't able to look after their neighbours, hence we need the state to do so for us. I suspect, as with most things, the reality is that whichever political ideology you have, you'll find good folk and utter tossers. Such is life.

Wealth and what it purchases the Libertarian is what matters. Stabbed dead child, libertarian parent purchase their own justice according to what they can afford. That's what no state means. And we are more less moving in part to this stage with so little police on streets.
And Charity would be pure choice of the individual libertarian. I've believed for some time the act philamprothy is always over estimated, it's where Thatcher went wrong as well.

 

[Jebus_lives]

There's nothing strictly speaking in libertarian philosophy that says you have to be an uncharitable tit, it's largely more a belief that people are more effective when working of their own volition than a state doing so on their behalf. The argument from the left has always been that people aren't able to look after their neighbours, hence we need the state to do so for us. I suspect, as with most things, the reality is that whichever political ideology you have, you'll find good folk and utter tossers. Such is life.

American Libertarianism is some of the most reactionary right wing politics across the world. It couples deregulation and individual freedom with conservative Christian beliefs, to achieve some horrible ideology.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

have you read Ayn Rand?

I have.

Wealth and what it purchases the Libertarian is what matters. Stabbed dead child, libertarian parent purchase their own justice according to what they can afford. That's what no state means. And we are more less moving in part to this stage with so little police on streets.
And Charity would be pure choice of the individual libertarian. I've believed for some time the act philamprothy is always over estimated, it's where Thatcher went wrong as well.

I wouldn't say it's strictly speaking what you can purchase (although that is often how it manifests itself), but rather what you can voluntarily do. This sits at the heart of the perennially misunderstood quote from Thatcher about no such thing as society, as what she was saying is that society isn't the presence of a government, but rather the construct of all the small interactions and behaviours of us. We are the ultimate bastions of change in a way that governments can't really match.

There's plenty of science to support 'self-organising' systems as opposed to command and control, so it kinda boils down to whether we believe humans are alright and will look out for one another, or dog-eat-dog toe rags that need a state to save us from ourselves. As with so much, I suspect the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

American Libertarianism is some of the most reactionary right wing politics across the world. It couples deregulation and individual freedom with conservative Christian beliefs, to achieve some horrible ideology.

Well yeah, when you chuck Christian beliefs into most things it gets messy pretty quickly. They're no less bonkers than the Islamic governments around the world that they so oppose. Two sides of the same warped coin.

 

[abelard]

There's nothing strictly speaking in libertarian philosophy that says you have to be an uncharitable tit, it's largely more a belief that people are more effective when working of their own volition than a state doing so on their behalf. The argument from the left has always been that people aren't able to look after their neighbours, hence we need the state to do so for us. I suspect, as with most things, the reality is that whichever political ideology you have, you'll find good folk and utter tossers. Such is life.

have you read Ayn Rand?

I have.

Including the bit where one of her heroes roams the seas torpedoing humanitarian aid convoys??

One way of understanding the difference between liberals and the left these days is that the left actually takes the notion of 'equality of opportunity' seriously, whereas small 'l' liberals - Thatcher, Blair, Cameron, Osbourne - have turned it into a sick joke and declared 'job done'.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Including the bit where one of her heroes roams the seas torpedoing humanitarian aid convoys??

One way of understanding the difference between liberals and the left these days is that the left actually takes the notion of 'equality of opportunity' seriously, whereas small 'l' liberals - Thatcher, Blair, Cameron, Osbourne - have turned it into a sick joke and declared 'job done'.

no, which book is that in? I've read Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, albeit both quite some time ago and don't remember that in either.

I'm not really one for broad brush analogies like that, but do see that humanity as a whole is now better than it's ever been at giving opportunity to more and more people, and that in the UK this is also true, as we've had several decades of universal education to all children, and more people going to university than ever before. I sense that's a part of the problem, is that politicians are reluctant to ever praise anything their opponent has done, and tend instead to exaggerate the failings to make their own solution seem more attractive. We saw with Clinton vs Trump that a ticket of tinkering at the edges isn't very attractive, even if in reality that's largely what's needed.

This is perhaps why people have such a distorted view of reality, whether it's the number of foreigners or people of different faiths living among them, or the unemployment rate or poverty levels, or all of the other things that humans get so badly wrong when asked to assess the state of the world. Indeed, people may choose to misconstrue this post as suggesting that all is perfect and that evident issues (usually involving the sick and disabled for added emotional punch) are being brushed under the carpet by an uncaring whatever. Such is the political landscape we live in *shrug

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Including the bit where one of her heroes roams the seas torpedoing humanitarian aid convoys??

Well, it undermines the free market. Was that a individual liberal freedom of said hero or their economic conservative values and enforcing the "invisible hand" the shrug thing?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The UK government is due to hold emergency talks with industry leaders on Tuesday after discovering that the country doesn’t have the right pallets to continue exporting goods to the European Union if it leaves without a deal next month.

Under strict EU rules, pallets — wooden structures that companies use to transport large volumes of goods — arriving from non-member states are required to meet a series of checks and standards.

Wood pallets must be heat-treated or cleaned to prevent contamination and the spread of pests, and have specific markings to confirm that they legal in EU markets.

Most pallets that British exporters are using do not conform to these rules for non-EU countries, or “third countries,” as EU member states follow a much more relaxed set of regulations.

No-deal Brexit panic after ministers realize the UK doesn't have the right pallets for exporting to the EU

Exclusive: The UK doesn't have the right pallets to continue exporting to the EU in a no-deal Brexit, ministers told industry leaders.

www.businessinsider.com

Back on topic, Brexit is becoming more and more farcical.

 

[abelard]

lol no, which book is that in? I've read Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, albeit both quite some time ago and don't remember that in either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atlas_Shrugged_characters#Ragnar_Danneskjöld

I'm not really one for broad brush analogies like that, but do see that humanity as a whole is now better than it's ever been at giving opportunity to more and more people, and that in the UK this is also true, as we've had several decades of universal education to all children, and more people going to university than ever before. I sense that's a part of the problem, is that politicians are reluctant to ever praise anything their opponent has done, and tend instead to exaggerate the failings to make their own solution seem more attractive. We saw with Clinton vs Trump that a ticket of tinkering at the edges isn't very attractive, even if in reality that's largely what's needed.

This is perhaps why people have such a distorted view of reality, whether it's the number of foreigners or people of different faiths living among them, or the unemployment rate or poverty levels, or all of the other things that humans get so badly wrong when asked to assess the state of the world. Indeed, people may choose to misconstrue this post as suggesting that all is perfect and that evident issues (usually involving the sick and disabled for added emotional punch) are being brushed under the carpet by an uncaring whatever. Such is the political landscape we live in *shrug

Child poverty set to hit record levels, says think-tank
Resolution Foundation blames low growth and benefit cuts for grim outlook
https://www.ft.com/content/0e26447c-3455-11e9-bb0c-42459962a812

Many pupils in England hungry and badly clothed, say teachers
Union says schools overwhelmed by funding cuts and increasing child poverty
https://www.theguardian.com/society...england-hungry-and-badly-clothed-say-teachers

...and literally thousands more of the same.



^You should found a charity which goes around giving these kids free copies of Steven Pinker's Enlightenment Now

 

[Bruce Wayne]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atlas_Shrugged_characters#Ragnar_Danneskjöld

Fair dos It's a bit of a kids book so it's probably quite reflective (of both advocate and critic) if anyone takes it seriously. All it is is an attempt to shoehorn a rather crude and clumsy philosophy into a badly written story. It should be to philosophy what the Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe is to theology, but hey ho.

Child poverty set to hit record levels, says think-tank
Resolution Foundation blames low growth and benefit cuts for grim outlook
https://www.ft.com/content/0e26447c-3455-11e9-bb0c-42459962a812

Many pupils in England hungry and badly clothed, say teachers
Union says schools overwhelmed by funding cuts and increasing child poverty
https://www.theguardian.com/society...england-hungry-and-badly-clothed-say-teachers

...and literally thousands more of the same.

^You should found a charity which goes around giving these kids free copies of Steven Pinker's Enlightenment Now

On the first one, I have concerns about how poverty is measured in the UK, as I don't think the relative measure that is commonly deployed is right at all. My brother (in the UK) is technically living in poverty as his income isn't very high, yet lives in a new 2-bed house, drives a sports car with ample gadgets and wotnot. My sister-in-law (in Czech), has 4 people living in a 3-room flat and sleeps under a blanket donated by the Red Cross, yet isn't classified as living in poverty (and incidentally, neither regard themselves as such either).

With your second link, that is highlighting an outcome, where your presumed solution is automatically 'more government'. It's a simplistic answer that allows people who want to have a passing degree of umbrage to satisfy that desire without having to bother themselves in exploring it any further. If it works for you, then by all means.

 

[Alan Whittle]

No-deal Brexit panic after ministers realize the UK doesn't have the right pallets for exporting to the EU

Exclusive: The UK doesn't have the right pallets to continue exporting to the EU in a no-deal Brexit, ministers told industry leaders.

www.businessinsider.com

Back on topic, Brexit is becoming more and more farcical.

They need our pallets more than we need theirs.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Sorry, I’m just catching up on this thread so not trying to call you out specifically. But if you don’t like the “unicorn card” (which I agree with you on) then you can’t use “over 50% of the population” as that gets under my skin too as it’s factually incorrect. Over 50% of voters in the referendum, not the population.

I’d also like to clarify for transparency that I do think we should remain yet I wouldn’t use the term thick for people that don’t think we should leave. I would say a lot of people that want(ed) to leave were uniformed. And that’s a huge difference. I can’t comment on the people’s opinions in this thread you are referring to as it’s probably many pages back (which I guess is a bit ironic as I’m choosing not to inform myself)

No worries mate. I'm always open to reasonable debate on Brexit as it's something you don't often get with both sides being so polarised. I agree with you on the 50%. It was actually an attempt at irony using it on purpose knowing I was paraphrasing a popular Brexit comment. If you read my other posts in here you will see I am not what you would consider your typical Brexit voter. I don't agree with everything that happens on the Brexit side and am quite happy, and willing, to call it down when needed.

Can I just check my understanding of your post too. Did you mean to say that you wouldn't use the term "thick" for people that think we should leave. Also did you mean to say uninformed? I'll assume you did on both counts.

My comment was aimed at one particular poster who had used the Unicorn phrase. Having said that, I do believe it is true that there are a lot of Remain supporters who do hold a generalistic view of Brexit voters as thick, uninformed, duped or some similar phrase, to the effect that they didn't know what they were voting for. I'm sure if you go back through the pages in this forum I'm 100% sure you will find many such posts. I cba and I'm sure you're the same.

The other point you make about "a lot" of Brexit voters being uninformed, I would question what you mean by "a lot". I have no doubt that some of them would have been uninformed, many of whom would also have been racially motivated to vote leave (but I include that rabble amongst the uninformed). But I'm equally sure that some of the Remain voters would also have been uninformed. To believe otherwise is naïve IMO. Possibly not to the same extent but who really knows for sure. I can only go by myself and everybody else I have spoken to since the referendum who I know voted to leave. In every instance, I would say that they were sufficiently intelligent and knowledgeable to decide their own mind, and not one of them has since expressed an opinion that they were duped or didn't understand what they were voting for. That's not to say that there aren't some out there that feel that way, but I've yet to meet any.

 

[Jebus_lives]

No-deal Brexit panic after ministers realize the UK doesn't have the right pallets for exporting to the EU

Exclusive: The UK doesn't have the right pallets to continue exporting to the EU in a no-deal Brexit, ministers told industry leaders.

www.businessinsider.com

Back on topic, Brexit is becoming more and more farcical.

lol.

Just when you think Brexit has reached it's nadir it keeps on surprising you.