Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
Not open for further replies.
I mean if I grew up in the UK in the 50's, 60's or 70's I could understand the inherent distrust of Europe as a common entity geopolitically. So much history.

It's so easy to fear monger.

It's the experience of the prior referendum also. A vote to remain in the EEC ended up as being membership of a political union, they were sold a pup. No wonder the older age group voted to leave. It isn't as easy as saying 'fear mongering'.
 
It's the experience of the prior referendum also. A vote to remain in the EEC ended up as being membership of a political union, they were sold a pup. No wonder the older age group voted to leave. It isn't as easy as saying 'fear mongering'.

You are right of course, but fear mongering is very easy...and was used everyday. Muslims were the star of the show in a negative way by the British press...popular Murdoch driven folks. So many terrorists...
 
Good coherent post again, refreshing ;)

Britain is a class ridden society, sadly only revolution could change that, and that seems to only exist in a Celtic part of the psyche.
We don't teach kids about the Levellers, about Peterloo and we still have the Murdoch version of the Miner's strike forming the opinions of the public in regards to unions.
I do believe this whole Brexit situation is purposefully created, the bones to be picked at by capitalist vultures and as always the poorer people and poorer areas will be hit hardest. Recent reports suggest London and the south east would suffer the least post Brexit and from that it becomes easier to trace steps backwards to find some of the underlying reasons why the leave vote succeeded, disparity, one of the few burgeoning industries we have.
Those less caring on the right approach the disparity as you would expect, but the lurch to the right promoted by the media is concerning, not just because it vindicates a less caring approach, but because it negates a society that is fair in its approach.
Everyone is duped.
As always we are left with that single question of cui bono?

The only thing I’d question about this is the emphasis on the likes of the Levellers, Peterloo or (in my education) the Rebecca Riots / 1830s disorder over the vote.

Not that they aren’t significant, but IMHO the improvement of the working class in the UK came as the result of class solidarity (especially 1850-1910 and 1945-1965ish), with effective union organisation, education campaigns and the creation of what was to become Labour. It’s probably a more dull subject to teach, but it might be better for kids to see something other than us v them.
 
The only thing I’d question about this is the emphasis on the likes of the Levellers, Peterloo or (in my education) the Rebecca Riots / 1830s disorder over the vote.

Not that they aren’t significant, but IMHO the improvement of the working class in the UK came as the result of class solidarity (especially 1850-1910 and 1945-1965ish), with effective union organisation, education campaigns and the creation of what was to become Labour. It’s probably a more dull subject to teach, but it might be better for kids to see something other than us v them.

Think it's far more important that children study the Battle of Hastings to be honest. It's very relevant to our daily lives and was the single most important event in the history of the world.
 
The only thing I’d question about this is the emphasis on the likes of the Levellers, Peterloo or (in my education) the Rebecca Riots / 1830s disorder over the vote.

Not that they aren’t significant, but IMHO the improvement of the working class in the UK came as the result of class solidarity (especially 1850-1910 and 1945-1965ish), with effective union organisation, education campaigns and the creation of what was to become Labour. It’s probably a more dull subject to teach, but it might be better for kids to see something other than us v them.
Just as a question, what level of History did you do up to? I did it up to A-Level and covered Peterloo in possibly first year GCSE as part of the way England changed from Cromwell onwards and definitely did 1850-First World War as part of my AS.

There's a question when it stops being 'history' as such and starts becoming political/social history - was definitely a shift as I got older, but of course history became elective from GCSE onwards.
 
Just as a question, what level of History did you do up to? I did it up to A-Level and covered Peterloo in possibly first year GCSE as part of the way England changed from Cromwell onwards and definitely did 1850-First World War as part of my AS.

There's a question when it stops being 'history' as such and starts becoming political/social history - was definitely a shift as I got older, but of course history became elective from GCSE onwards.

Up to A level as well (and then as a degree), but under what was the WJEC. We did the Civil War as well, but a lot of it was about the various movements and disorders in Wales during the 19th century.

It was interesting, but there was a lot left out and it never really explained how the miners / farmers / townspeople managed to succeed in spite of the treatment. It wasn’t until later that one read about all the societies, unions, self-help groups, choirs, church organisations, education groups and the like which supported the people.
 
Up to A level as well (and then as a degree), but under what was the WJEC. We did the Civil War as well, but a lot of it was about the various movements and disorders in Wales during the 19th century.

It was interesting, but there was a lot left out and it never really explained how the miners / farmers / townspeople managed to succeed in spite of the treatment. It wasn’t until later that one read about all the societies, unions, self-help groups, choirs, church organisations, education groups and the like which supported the people.
Yeah I'd agree with that, it always seemed to get to a point but never really finish off the 'story' as was - so a lot of the early welfare reforms for example looked at the state of play before hand, the thing that changed it but never really looked at the consequences and the tail end help that was needed. I think it's why we tend to get a lot of decision making/policy that falters in the long term - simply because we're taught in an 'Analyse and Act' rather than thinking more long term. The role of smaller parties etc. have to play is often overlooked. But it's alright because then you can cram in another term on one of the wars. o_O
 
Managed to renew my passport so that it still has European Union on it

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"I wish to speak about the tragedy of Europe, this noble continent, the home of all the great parent races of the Western world, the foundation of Christian faith and ethics, the origin of most of the culture, arts, philosophy and science both of ancient and modern times. If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance there would be no limit to the happiness, prosperity and glory which its 300 million or 400 million people would enjoy. Yet it is from Europe that has sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels, originated by the Teutonic nations in their rise to power, which we have seen in this 20th century and in our own lifetime wreck the peace and mar the prospects of all mankind.

What is this plight to which Europe has been reduced? Some of the smaller states have indeed made a good recovery, but over wide areas are a vast, quivering mass of tormented, hungry, careworn and bewildered human beings, who wait in the ruins of their cities and homes and scan the dark horizons for the approach of some new form of tyranny or terror. Among the victors there is a Babel of voices, among the vanquished the sullen silence of despair. That is all that Europeans, grouped in so many ancient states and nations, and that is all that the Germanic races have got by tearing each other to pieces and spreading havoc far and wide. Indeed, but for the fact that the great republic across the Atlantic realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve her own fate as well, and stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor. They may still return.

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as by a miracle transform the whole scene and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.

Much work has been done upon this task by the exertions of the Pan-European Union, which owes so much to the famous French patriot and statesman Aristide Briand. There is also that immense body which was brought into being amidst high hopes after the First World War — the League of Nations. The League did not fail because of its principles or conceptions. It failed because those principles were deserted by those states which brought it into being, because the governments of those states feared to face the facts and act while time remained. This disaster must not be repeated. There is, therefore, much knowledge and material with which to build and also bitter, dearly bought experience to spur.

There is no reason why a regional organisation of Europe should in any way conflict with the world organisation of the United Nations. On the contrary, I believe that the larger synthesis can only survive if it is founded upon broad natural groupings. There is already a natural grouping in the Western Hemisphere. We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations. These do not weaken, on the contrary they strengthen, the world organisation. They are in fact its main support. And why should there not be a European group which could give a sense of enlarged patriotism and common citizenship to the distracted peoples of this mighty continent? And why should it not take its rightful place with other great groupings and help to shape the honourable destiny of man? In order that this may be accomplished there must be an act of faith in which the millions of families speaking many languages must consciously take part.

We all know that the two World Wars through which we have passed arose out of the vain passion of Germany to play a dominating part in the world. In this last struggle crimes and massacres have been committed for which there is no parallel since the Mongol invasion of the 13th century, no equal at any time in human history. The guilty must be punished. Germany must be deprived of the power to rearm and make another aggressive war. But when all this has been done, as it will be done, as it is being done, there must be an end to retribution. There must be what Mr Gladstone many years ago called a “blessed act of oblivion”. We must all turn our backs upon the horrors of the past and look to the future. We cannot afford to drag forward across the years to come hatreds and revenges which have sprung from the injuries of the past. If Europe is to be saved from infinite misery, and indeed from final doom, there must be this act of faith in the European family, this act of oblivion against all crimes and follies of the past. Can the peoples of Europe rise to the heights of the soul and of the instinct and spirit of man? If they could, the wrongs and injuries which have been inflicted would have been washed away on all sides by the miseries which have been endured. Is there any need for further floods of agony? Is the only lesson of history to be that mankind is unteachable? Let there be justice, mercy and freedom. The peoples have only to will it and all will achieve their heart’s desire.

I am now going to say something that will astonish you. The first step in the re-creation of the European family must be a partnership between France and Germany. In this way only can France recover the moral and cultural leadership of Europe. There can be no revival of Europe without a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the United States of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to the common cause. The ancient States and principalities of Germany, freely joined for mutual convenience in a federal system, might take their individual places among the United States of Europe.

But I must give you warning, time may be short. At present there is a breathing space. The cannons have ceased firing. The fighting has stopped. But the dangers have not stopped. If we are to form a United States of Europe, or whatever name it may take, we must begin now. In these present days we dwell strangely and precariously under the shield, and I even say protection, of the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb is still only in the hands of a nation which, we know, will never use it except in the cause of right and freedom, but it may well be that in a few years this awful agency of destruction will be widespread and that the catastrophe following from its use by several warring nations will not only bring to an end all that we call civilisation but may possibly disintegrate the globe itself.

I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and who can. The salvation of the common people of every race and every land from war and servitude must be established on solid foundations, and must be created by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than to submit to tyranny. In this urgent work France and Germany must take the lead together. Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America — and, I trust, Soviet Russia, for then indeed all would be well — must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live. Therefore I say to you “Let Europe arise!”

- Winston Churchill, September 19, 1946.
 
Last edited:
"I wish to speak about the tragedy of Europe, this noble continent, the home of all the great parent races of the Western world, the foundation of Christian faith and ethics, the origin of most of the culture, arts, philosophy and science both of ancient and modern times. If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance there would be no limit to the happiness, prosperity and glory which its 300 million or 400 million people would enjoy. Yet it is from Europe that has sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels, originated by the Teutonic nations in their rise to power, which we have seen in this 20th century and in our own lifetime wreck the peace and mar the prospects of all mankind.

What is this plight to which Europe has been reduced? Some of the smaller states have indeed made a good recovery, but over wide areas are a vast, quivering mass of tormented, hungry, careworn and bewildered human beings, who wait in the ruins of their cities and homes and scan the dark horizons for the approach of some new form of tyranny or terror. Among the victors there is a Babel of voices, among the vanquished the sullen silence of despair. That is all that Europeans, grouped in so many ancient states and nations, and that is all that the Germanic races have got by tearing each other to pieces and spreading havoc far and wide. Indeed, but for the fact that the great republic across the Atlantic realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve her own fate as well, and stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor. They may still return.

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as by a miracle transform the whole scene and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.

Much work has been done upon this task by the exertions of the Pan-European Union, which owes so much to the famous French patriot and statesman Aristide Briand. There is also that immense body which was brought into being amidst high hopes after the First World War — the League of Nations. The League did not fail because of its principles or conceptions. It failed because those principles were deserted by those states which brought it into being, because the governments of those states feared to face the facts and act while time remained. This disaster must not be repeated. There is, therefore, much knowledge and material with which to build and also bitter, dearly bought experience to spur.

There is no reason why a regional organisation of Europe should in any way conflict with the world organisation of the United Nations. On the contrary, I believe that the larger synthesis can only survive if it is founded upon broad natural groupings. There is already a natural grouping in the Western Hemisphere. We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations. These do not weaken, on the contrary they strengthen, the world organisation. They are in fact its main support. And why should there not be a European group which could give a sense of enlarged patriotism and common citizenship to the distracted peoples of this mighty continent? And why should it not take its rightful place with other great groupings and help to shape the honourable destiny of man? In order that this may be accomplished there must be an act of faith in which the millions of families speaking many languages must consciously take part.

We all know that the two World Wars through which we have passed arose out of the vain passion of Germany to play a dominating part in the world. In this last struggle crimes and massacres have been committed for which there is no parallel since the Mongol invasion of the 13th century, no equal at any time in human history. The guilty must be punished. Germany must be deprived of the power to rearm and make another aggressive war. But when all this has been done, as it will be done, as it is being done, there must be an end to retribution. There must be what Mr Gladstone many years ago called a “blessed act of oblivion”. We must all turn our backs upon the horrors of the past and look to the future. We cannot afford to drag forward across the years to come hatreds and revenges which have sprung from the injuries of the past. If Europe is to be saved from infinite misery, and indeed from final doom, there must be this act of faith in the European family, this act of oblivion against all crimes and follies of the past. Can the peoples of Europe rise to the heights of the soul and of the instinct and spirit of man? If they could, the wrongs and injuries which have been inflicted would have been washed away on all sides by the miseries which have been endured. Is there any need for further floods of agony? Is the only lesson of history to be that mankind is unteachable? Let there be justice, mercy and freedom. The peoples have only to will it and all will achieve their heart’s desire.

I am now going to say something that will astonish you. The first step in the re-creation of the European family must be a partnership between France and Germany. In this way only can France recover the moral and cultural leadership of Europe. There can be no revival of Europe without a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the United States of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to the common cause. The ancient States and principalities of Germany, freely joined for mutual convenience in a federal system, might take their individual places among the United States of Europe.

But I must give you warning, time may be short. At present there is a breathing space. The cannons have ceased firing. The fighting has stopped. But the dangers have not stopped. If we are to form a United States of Europe, or whatever name it may take, we must begin now. In these present days we dwell strangely and precariously under the shield, and I even say protection, of the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb is still only in the hands of a nation which, we know, will never use it except in the cause of right and freedom, but it may well be that in a few years this awful agency of destruction will be widespread and that the catastrophe following from its use by several warring nations will not only bring to an end all that we call civilisation but may possibly disintegrate the globe itself.

I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and who can. The salvation of the common people of every race and every land from war and servitude must be established on solid foundations, and must be created by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than to submit to tyranny. In this urgent work France and Germany must take the lead together. Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America — and, I trust, Soviet Russia, for then indeed all would be well — must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live. Therefore I say to you “Let Europe arise!”

- Winston Churchill,
September 19, 1946
All Churchill's fault!
 
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