Current Affairs EU In or Out

[roydo]

Maybe having a no deal leave is the best option?

Essentially we voted leave to make the UK independent from the EU so having deals in place no matter how well negotiated is still giving the safety net. So the leave vote should have been leave no deal and make the UK completely independent.

But then we would need to make a trade deal anyrate. Surely its best that a trade deal is in place before the plug is pulled?

 

[Walken]

Like any other parliament? Time after time elections have been fought on the premise of manifestos that, once elected, governments of both persuasions have ignored or obfuscated on.
This state of politics now has fractured the process, beyond redemption if I'm honest, of what was already detached from the general public, acting as it does in the interest of corporations primarily while the public scramble around and pay the price. This is the bubble. The revolving door.
The concept of public representstion has all but vanished and when you have the same gerbils chasing self interest and posturing first then it is no great surprise to see the absolute shambles we're now facing.
We're goosed with Brexit, we'll be goosed in a different way without it. We need to change the system completely.
How many MPs will vote the way their constituents did?

To a large extent I agree, but doubling down on a misguided concept influenced by some of the very worst people in that political cesspit doesn't help anyone. I also don't really see why an MP should vote the same way as their constituents on a single issue matter, that's not what they were elected to do

 

[Dymak]

So now that David Icke has been proven correct in stating that the establishment was never going to allow the UK to leave the EU, what else is David Icke correct about?

 

[Kenshin]

But then we would need to make a trade deal anyrate. Surely its best that a trade deal is in place before the plug is pulled?

Well yes.

But there difference is the minute we said we were leaving, we needed the EU more than they needed us. So they can and are getting exactly what they want and we have to accept it to get that trade deal.

So going completely without the deal allows us to negotiate on our terms without having to obey to EU wishes.

I'm not saying it's better like, but it's the real leave scenario.

 

[edge]

To a large extent I agree, but doubling down on a misguided concept influenced by some of the very worst people in that political cesspit doesn't help anyone. I also don't really see why an MP should vote the same way as their constituents on a single issue matter, that's not what they were elected to do

you have given an example of what he is talking about, why should a person due to there position as an mp have the right to implement his own wishes over the wishes of the very people that voted them to represent them and there views on a subject, surely there number 1 job should be to implement those as a matter of principle.
if not we may as well have a politburo that just tells the population what's good for them without any recourse.
Its a dangerous game to go down that path.

 

[Walken]

you have given an example of what he is talking about, why should a person due to there position as an mp have the right to implement his own wishes over the wishes of the very people that voted them to represent them and there views on a subject, surely there number 1 job should be to implement those as a matter of principle.
if not we may as well have a politburo that just tells the population what's good for them without any recourse.
Its a dangerous game to go down that path.

because that's what he was elected to do, to represent for the benefit of the area and people, in a general election and not on a single issue such as brexit. The brexit vote is not the only vote that has taken place, and given the near if not completely illegal nature of the leave campaign, I have no issue with an MP refusing to implement something they believe will be damaging, especially if it wasn't part of their manifesto and they have never campaigned to leave

 

[roydo]

Well yes.

But there difference is the minute we said we were leaving, we needed the EU more than they needed us. So they can and are getting exactly what they want and we have to accept it to get that trade deal.

So going completely without the deal allows us to negotiate on our terms without having to obey to EU wishes.

I'm not saying it's better like, but it's the real leave scenario.

What makes you think that the dynamic between us and the EU, trade wise, will change just cos we are no longer a member?

Using a ridiculous analogy might furnish my point better. So, we dont want to play by their rules, we want to trade independently, but the EU will still be a massive deal for UK Plc. Post leaving.

Any change made by the EU to the standards of their products will have to be accepted by us. So the EU decides they will only make yellow handbrakes cos of global warming, (I did say ridiculous), and only import yellow ones, we will have to comply.

Hardly independent is it?

 

[magicjuan]

you have given an example of what he is talking about, why should a person due to there position as an mp have the right to implement his own wishes over the wishes of the very people that voted them to represent them and there views on a subject, surely there number 1 job should be to implement those as a matter of principle.
if not we may as well have a politburo that just tells the population what's good for them without any recourse.
Its a dangerous game to go down that path.

Exactly. There is no formal constitution and when parliament goes against the wishes of the electorate then it is very dangerous territory indeed.
People blame the voters, namely leave voters, but they went on what was put in front of them, managed by parliament, political parties and those with vested selfish interests. The input on a public level was negligible, the 'brexit' narrative was out of their hands and wasn't intended to inform. It was a pup from start to finish.

 

[Khalekan]

So now that David Icke has been proven correct in stating that the establishment was never going to allow the UK to leave the EU, what else is David Icke correct about?

That the Queen is a lizard.

 

[edge]

because that's what he was elected to do, to represent for the benefit of the area and people, in a general election and not on a single issue such as brexit. The brexit vote is not the only vote that has taken place, and given the near if not completely illegal nature of the leave campaign, I have no issue with an MP refusing to implement something they believe will be damaging, especially if it wasn't part of their manifesto and they have never campaigned to leave

but unlike most other votes this gave a answer from the voters as to what they directed there mps to do.
A general election and most other elections have a myriad of issues to contend with in this case there wasn't it was a single instruction to leave the EU.
As for the campaign both lots lied ,its a fact and yet more reason that we the electorate should not trust them to do what they want without recourse to there constituents .

 

[Walken]

but unlike most other votes this gave a answer from the voters as to what they directed there mps to do.
A general election and most other elections have a myriad of issues to contend with in this case there wasn't it was a single instruction to leave the EU.
As for the campaign both lots lied ,its a fact and yet more reason that we the electorate should not trust them to do what they want without recourse to there constituents .

They were not elected on the referendum, they did not campaign to be elected on the referendum. What would you have the MP's do? push for a no deal brexit or support May's brexit? Which do you think will satisfy the 52% and their two year old referendum, despite new info now being available. the 52% that must be obeyed or else society and democracy will fall apart, no matter what the cost or whether the MP in question doesn't believes in Brexit

 

[Armaghtoffee]

There not meaningless if you cannot see the EU have used the Irish border to try to stop brexit.......
Please post a link to say how they set up the Good friday agreement.......... they were never involved.......

Ask and ye shall receive:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-42412972

 

[tsubaki]

By the same token pushing through a No Deal Brexit without serious work to find out why almost as many voted to Stay is doomed as well.

As we have seen in the subsequent "negotiations"......a term I use lightly.

The whole reason Brexit is proving so problematical is that there was no overwhelming consensus for it.....51.8% of them as voted...…sommat like 32% of the entire UK population.

And then there is the disparity in voting between young people and old people....post Brexit this country is going to be as unhappy and divided at the USA is under Trump.

For the first part, not really - people voted to stay because they recognized that the EU wasn't to blame for what it was being blamed for, because they recognize and value the links with Europe, because of personal experience and habit and (probably most importantly) because people knew what it was.

Remain wasn't (the Government funding aside) paid for by dark money, it didn't use nefarious tactics to gather data, and it didn't descend into overtly racist campaigning. However what Remain could not deal with was the very real fact that, for a lot of this country, the opportunities open to people towards the bottom of the social order have gotten worse - jobs pay less, have worse conditions and are less secure, education is worse and (at university and above) costs more, there are longer queues for NHS treatment and council housing, the contrast between them and the rich is growing ever wider and in an awful lot of ways things seem to be worse for them than it was for their parents.

Most importantly, it could never overcome the fact that immigrants were blamed by a lot of people for all of that - largely because the papers and successive governments, including almost all those figures who called for us to stay in the EU, told them that they were.

As for the division we will have to deal with for at least a decade after this, I agree entirely - indeed one might almost think that division was the point of the exercise, given who would benefit (which is the same sort of people who benefit from the division of the US).

 

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

Ask and ye shall receive:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-42412972

Yet another ignorant Leave claim destroyed.........

 

[Walken]

For the first part, not really - people voted to stay because they recognized that the EU wasn't to blame for what it was being blamed for, because they recognize and value the links with Europe, because of personal experience and habit and (probably most importantly) because people knew what it was.

Remain wasn't (the Government funding aside) paid for by dark money, it didn't use nefarious tactics to gather data, and it didn't descend into overtly racist campaigning. However what Remain could not deal with was the very real fact that, for a lot of this country, the opportunities open to people towards the bottom of the social order have gotten worse - jobs pay less, have worse conditions and are less secure, education is worse and (at university and above) costs more, there are longer queues for NHS treatment and council housing, the contrast between them and the rich is growing ever wider and in an awful lot of ways things seem to be worse for them than it was for their parents.

Most importantly, it could never overcome the fact that immigrants were blamed by a lot of people for all of that - largely because the papers and successive governments, including almost all those figures who called for us to stay in the EU, told them that they were.

As for the division we will have to deal with for at least a decade after this, I agree entirely - indeed one might almost think that division was the point of the exercise, given who would benefit (which is the same sort of people who benefit from the division of the US).

That's a great point, the very people who casually called the referendum to strengthen their own position had for a long time been playing the immigration bogeyman card. They've a lot to answer for and it's not hyperbole to suggest Cameron is amongst the worst PM's to ever serve the country