Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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@peteblue @Joey66

This is a step too far isn't it?!
Thats democracy they may pay the price in the next GE which may come sooner than you think now!
If Labour did it for Brexit reasons which I doubt very much If a GE is on sooner than they think the champagne corks popping last night in their quarters were their main objective of grabbing power - the old saying every politician is after power to get their snout in the trough comes to mind!
They are all the same but 17.5 million people may get let down because of what happened last night mind you the terms are the same in the EU!
Everything is put to a vote that is what is so bent about the place one country vetoes, and it all falls down anyway!
 
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It's a shame he's not the leader rather than Corbyn tbh.
Speaks volumes about corbyn's management, he's at least attempting to assemble a strong team for what he perceives to be the good of the Nation; not sycophants nor to keeping enemies close. Starmer can concentrate on the most important issue whilst waiting in the wings.
 
U wot lid?
How about stating one proposition clearly and we'll take it from there?

Thats democracy they may pay the price in the next GE which may come sooner than you think now!
If Labour did it for Brexit reasons which I doubt very much If a GE is on sooner than they think the champagne corks popping last night in their quarters were their main objective of grabbing power - the old saying every politician is after power to get their snout in the trough comes to mind!
They are all the same but 17.5 million people may get let down because of what happened last night mind you the terms are the same in the EU!
Everything is put to a vote that is what is so bent about the place one country vetoes, and it all falls down anyway!
 
Both sides told porkies also if that had been a GE first past the post system Out would have won by a biggest Landslide since the Blair days so you're theories are invalid !


You sure Joey? it was a 3.78% margin of victory, May had 2.4% in the last general & that resulted in a hung Parliament.

Edit: not even close every election since Feb 74 has had a larger margin of victory, but hey who needs facts
 
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U wot lid?
How about stating one proposition clearly and we'll take it from there?
In consensus on my post it spells out that power rules democracy just the reason why many voted Out to leave the EU anyway just heard that's only part one of the bill tbh whoever was in power Tories/Labour I doubt any decent exit bill would be done by either party !
If the Out vote was on a constitutional basis that vote would have had the highest turnout ever and would have been a landslide government, but for many reasons self interest from all parties showed last night that leaving the EU under any terms is going to be difficult!
 
In consensus on my post it spells out that power rules democracy just the reason why many voted Out to leave the EU anyway just heard that's only part one of the bill tbh whoever was in power Tories/Labour I doubt any decent exit bill would be done by either party !
If the Out vote was on a constitutional basis that vote would have had the highest turnout ever and would have been a landslide government, but for many reasons self interest from all parties showed last night that leaving the EU under any terms is going to be difficult!

I think what you're trying to says is that if it was on a constituency by constituency basis, the "out" vote would have won a landslide number of seats. Is that what you're getting at?
 
From a statistical viewpoint, I have no idea how on earth someone could actually calculate that.

Fair enough if there was a study on it

Edit: actually it was a one man study by a man who predicted this for the general

  • the Conservatives will finish as the largest party, with between 37 and 49 percent of the vote, and between 359 and 468 seats.
  • Labour will end up with between 23 and 33 percent of the vote, and between 110 and 206 seats.
  • the Liberal Democrats will end up with between 7 and 19 percent of the vote, and between 3 and 20 seats.
 
Thats democracy they may pay the price in the next GE which may come sooner than you think now!
If Labour did it for Brexit reasons which I doubt very much If a GE is on sooner than they think the champagne corks popping last night in their quarters were their main objective of grabbing power - the old saying every politician is after power to get their snout in the trough comes to mind!
They are all the same but 17.5 million people may get let down because of what happened last night mind you the terms are the same in the EU!
Everything is put to a vote that is what is so bent about the place one country vetoes, and it all falls down anyway!


Joey 52% voted to Leave. Of that percentage there was no detail on how the UK would leave or when. Surely you accept therefore that there is no "devine article of Leave"! Some.would have voted to Leave everything tomorrow. Some wanted to stay in the single market. It's the detail that we are now seeing debated in parliament. In what world is that a bad thing?
 
yes -
An anti-Brexit party would win 150 fewer seats than a Leave party at a general election, analysis suggests

That's a ridiculous extrapolation from the fact that leave won in a large majority of constituencies, many by tiny numbers.

The referendum was a binary question. People vote in a general election on all sorts of issues, not just whether a party adopts a specific "leave" or "remain" stance.
 
First thoughts
Proud of themselves? The Tory Brexit rebels certainly should be
Polly_Toynbee,_L.png

Polly Toynbee
Parliament’s refusal to march to the extremists’ drumbeat shows that the ‘mutineers’ now better reflect the will of the people than the Brexit press does

Thursday 14 December 2017 11.36 GMTLast modified on Thursday 14 December 201712.20 GMT



“Proud of yourselves?” splashes the Mail, with a rogues’ gallery of last night’s Tory rebels. “Yes,” should be their defiant reply. What’s more, they are likely to do it again if the government is foolish enough to put forward other Brexit clauses that defy democratic scrutiny of this most vital decision.

Next week they look set to reject the absurdity of fixing an arbitrary date of departure regardless of where we stand at the time.

The Mail straps across its front page: “11 self-consumed malcontents pull the rug from under our EU negotiators, betray their leader, party and 17.4m Brexit voters and – most damning of all – increase the possibility of a Marxist in No 10.” That’s what you would expect from inside what increasingly looks like an extreme political cult. “Mutiny”, says the Telegraph; “Revenge of the Rebels”, blasts the Times.

Nadine Dorries MP adds: “They should be deselected and never allowed to stand as a Tory MP again.” Good grief. Labour didn’t even deselect Kate Hoey, the Farage-hugging serial rebel who appears to disagree with her party on everything, from foxhunting onwards.

Last night’s vote scraped by on a majority on four, so add praise to those four Labour Brexiters whom Jeremy Corbyn personally persuaded to rejoin their colleagues and back the Grieve amendment. No one need be pro-remain to be swayed by powerful speeches, especially the one from Grieve warning of constitutional sabotage if everything in future can be fixed by fiat of the government of the day, bypassing parliament.

So does she set off today to Brussels weakened? “May undermined before Brussels trip” warns the Times. No, she seeks a start to the next stage no longer at the mercy of hard-Brexit guns to her head. Parliament’s refusal to march to the extremists’ drumbeat gives her flexibility to strike a deal that does least harm.

Where is “the will of the people” in the complex negotiations ahead? Yesterday a serious piece of research, funded by the Economic and Social Research Council, published the findings of a citizens’ assembly, throwing far deeper insight into Brexit attitudes than crude opinion polls. Fifty citizens scientifically selected for age, class, region and politics – slightly more leavers than remainers – were given extensive information on options ahead by diverse experts and economists, overseen for neutrality by an advisory panel including Bernard Jenkin and Hilary Benn.

After four days of debate, with a chance to question whomever they liked, they were not asked to rerun the crude in-or-out referendum vote: they were asked about the options and trade-offs to come, such as between the balance of controlling migration and getting a good trade deal. Over four days, they explored fiendish intricacies the referendum ignored: paying into the EU, workers and environment rights, Ireland, the economy, public services, UK autonomy and more.

Their final opinions were a country mile away from Mail and Telegraph headlines. On trade, 28 of the 50 decided either to stay in the single market (14 of them) or to leave but seek maximum EU free trade, zero tariffs and frictionless borders (another 14). Next, 19 chose to leave the single market and seek a limited, zero-tariff deal but leave out non-tariff barriers and the regulation that those entail. Only three chose to leave with no deal.

Among many options and second preferences, descending from cake-and-eat-it to crashing out, finally they were asked: what if we can’t get a good trade deal? Only 19 would crash out, while 31 would stay in the single market.

In the Commons yesterday, helping to launch these findings was Suella Fernandes MP, head of the hard Brexit European Research Group. She praised the citizens assembly as the best way to consult people, and said politicians should listen. But here’s the rub: did she herself take note that a large majority, once they had become well informed, would make the compromise of less control and more migration freedom in exchange for frictionless trade? Hell, no. “No deal is better than a bad deal,” she parroted – precisely the opposite of what most of these citizens concluded.

Citizens’ assemblies are wonderful – if only the whole population could be given the chance for such serious, informed deliberation. Instead we have the Daily Mail and the rest. But, as ordinary opinion polls are increasingly suggesting, the Tory “rebels” and “mutineers” may be much closer to the will of the people than the fanatical Brexiteers and their press. Tory MPs daring to “speak for England” – and all the UK nations – should stick to their guns – and others who were too frit last night should join them.
 
Fair enough if there was a study on it

Edit: actually it was a one man study by a man who predicted this for the general

I've just had a look at the 'study', which is in fact a blog post.



"You might be worried about this approach. You might think that demographics isn’t destiny. That’s probably not true at the individual level, but at the aggregate level, demographics help explain an awful lot of the variation in how different areas voted. If you add information on which region a local authority (or parliamentary constituency) is in, you do even better."

Surely, if you are estimating leave votes as a percentage - you surely need to have a comprehensive breakdown as to the turnout within each constituency; not just estimated (unweighted, may I also add) counts against the 2015 general election?
 
I've just had a look at the 'study', which is in fact a blog post.



"You might be worried about this approach. You might think that demographics isn’t destiny. That’s probably not true at the individual level, but at the aggregate level, demographics help explain an awful lot of the variation in how different areas voted. If you add information on which region a local authority (or parliamentary constituency) is in, you do even better."

Surely, if you are estimating leave votes as a percentage - you surely need to have a comprehensive breakdown as to the turnout within each constituency; not just estimated (unweighted, may I also add) counts against the 2015 general election?

I accept parliament's vote last night yet you still cannot accept the referendum result?
 
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