Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
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Speaking on behalf of at least one Remainer, I fully accept the referendum result, doesnt mean I dont think its utterly stupid. Hopefully the Commons will address this lunacy. Y'Know, making our own rules and that.
As I stated which ever party was in power shenanigans would take place - easy being in opposition aiming for power which every opposition party drives for - That's all it was many Labour MPs bar two voted against the Brexit - Five Tory brexit tory seats voted for the amendment - if I was a voter and voted for Brexit that MP would never get my vote again as the defied the referendum result imo!
It has to be accepted its democrocy , but they forgot about their constituents vote in the referendum imo!
basic democracy - that would be that with any party MP - The dogs breakfast was down to the last PM and chancellor thinking they would win the vote then retiring how convenient of them!
A right Eton Mess - Its well known Corbyn is not a lover of the EU so if he was in power goodness knows which way he would swing in full power!
I never voted at the last election always a Labour voter - remember while all this stalls our NHS and economy is standing still - uncertainty will not help one bit over Brexit to the detriment to social care etc etc!
 
As I stated which ever party was in power shenanigans would take place - easy being in opposition aiming for power which every opposition party drives for - That's all it was many Labour MPs bar two voted against the Brexit - Five Tory brexit tory seats voted for the amendment - if I was a voter and voted for Brexit that MP would never get my vote again as the defied the referendum result imo!
It has to be accepted its democrocy , but they forgot about their constituents vote in the referendum imo!
basic democracy - that would be that with any party MP - The dogs breakfast was down to the last PM and chancellor thinking they would win the vote then retiring how convenient of them!
A right Eton Mess - Its well known Corbyn is not a lover of the EU so if he was in power goodness knows which way he would swing in full power!
I never voted at the last election always a Labour voter - remember while all this stalls our NHS and economy is standing still - uncertainty will not help one bit over Brexit to the detriment to social care etc etc!

Why did you previously vote for a pro-EU political party?
 
I thoroughly dislike politicians.

We have people claiming a victory for democracy after a vote is taken by our elected representatives to frustrate the will of the electorate.

The same people also are claiming a victory for parliamentary sovereignty despite the fact they yearn to remain in an institution where we hand over all our sovereignty to unaccountable eurocrats and judiciary.

But yeah, it's "democracy".
 
I thoroughly dislike politicians.

We have people claiming a victory for democracy after a vote is taken by our elected representatives to frustrate the will of the electorate.

The same people also are claiming a victory for parliamentary sovereignty despite the fact they yearn to remain in an institution where we hand over all our sovereignty to unaccountable eurocrats and judiciary.

But yeah, it's "democracy".

Except that is not what they voted on, Tim.

They did not vote to “overturn the will of the electorate”.

As far as I am aware we are still leaving the EU sometime in March 2019.

They voted to ensure that a motley crew of opportunists, xenophobes and nasty Little Englanders will not get leave to cut any old deal they like just to get the UK the heck out of Dodge.

That would be totally unacceptable to me and how any reasonable person can be against a very detailed scrutiny of any final deal and against a robust debate and a vote in Parliament by our elected representatives is beyond me :)

Always remember Tim, the Brexit vote was won by a very slim majority and those of us whom voted against this madness demand that our voices are heard and our concerns addressed before the umbilical is eventually cut.

Thank goodness we have enough sensible parliamentarians to hold these buggers to account.
 
First thoughts
Proud of themselves? The Tory Brexit rebels certainly should be
Polly_Toynbee,_L.png

Polly Toynbee
Parliament’s refusal to march to the extremists’ drumbeat shows that the ‘mutineers’ now better reflect the will of the people than the Brexit press does

Thursday 14 December 2017 11.36 GMTLast modified on Thursday 14 December 201712.20 GMT



“Proud of yourselves?” splashes the Mail, with a rogues’ gallery of last night’s Tory rebels. “Yes,” should be their defiant reply. What’s more, they are likely to do it again if the government is foolish enough to put forward other Brexit clauses that defy democratic scrutiny of this most vital decision.

Next week they look set to reject the absurdity of fixing an arbitrary date of departure regardless of where we stand at the time.

The Mail straps across its front page: “11 self-consumed malcontents pull the rug from under our EU negotiators, betray their leader, party and 17.4m Brexit voters and – most damning of all – increase the possibility of a Marxist in No 10.” That’s what you would expect from inside what increasingly looks like an extreme political cult. “Mutiny”, says the Telegraph; “Revenge of the Rebels”, blasts the Times.

Nadine Dorries MP adds: “They should be deselected and never allowed to stand as a Tory MP again.” Good grief. Labour didn’t even deselect Kate Hoey, the Farage-hugging serial rebel who appears to disagree with her party on everything, from foxhunting onwards.

Last night’s vote scraped by on a majority on four, so add praise to those four Labour Brexiters whom Jeremy Corbyn personally persuaded to rejoin their colleagues and back the Grieve amendment. No one need be pro-remain to be swayed by powerful speeches, especially the one from Grieve warning of constitutional sabotage if everything in future can be fixed by fiat of the government of the day, bypassing parliament.

So does she set off today to Brussels weakened? “May undermined before Brussels trip” warns the Times. No, she seeks a start to the next stage no longer at the mercy of hard-Brexit guns to her head. Parliament’s refusal to march to the extremists’ drumbeat gives her flexibility to strike a deal that does least harm.

Where is “the will of the people” in the complex negotiations ahead? Yesterday a serious piece of research, funded by the Economic and Social Research Council, published the findings of a citizens’ assembly, throwing far deeper insight into Brexit attitudes than crude opinion polls. Fifty citizens scientifically selected for age, class, region and politics – slightly more leavers than remainers – were given extensive information on options ahead by diverse experts and economists, overseen for neutrality by an advisory panel including Bernard Jenkin and Hilary Benn.

After four days of debate, with a chance to question whomever they liked, they were not asked to rerun the crude in-or-out referendum vote: they were asked about the options and trade-offs to come, such as between the balance of controlling migration and getting a good trade deal. Over four days, they explored fiendish intricacies the referendum ignored: paying into the EU, workers and environment rights, Ireland, the economy, public services, UK autonomy and more.

Their final opinions were a country mile away from Mail and Telegraph headlines. On trade, 28 of the 50 decided either to stay in the single market (14 of them) or to leave but seek maximum EU free trade, zero tariffs and frictionless borders (another 14). Next, 19 chose to leave the single market and seek a limited, zero-tariff deal but leave out non-tariff barriers and the regulation that those entail. Only three chose to leave with no deal.

Among many options and second preferences, descending from cake-and-eat-it to crashing out, finally they were asked: what if we can’t get a good trade deal? Only 19 would crash out, while 31 would stay in the single market.

In the Commons yesterday, helping to launch these findings was Suella Fernandes MP, head of the hard Brexit European Research Group. She praised the citizens assembly as the best way to consult people, and said politicians should listen. But here’s the rub: did she herself take note that a large majority, once they had become well informed, would make the compromise of less control and more migration freedom in exchange for frictionless trade? Hell, no. “No deal is better than a bad deal,” she parroted – precisely the opposite of what most of these citizens concluded.

Citizens’ assemblies are wonderful – if only the whole population could be given the chance for such serious, informed deliberation. Instead we have the Daily Mail and the rest. But, as ordinary opinion polls are increasingly suggesting, the Tory “rebels” and “mutineers” may be much closer to the will of the people than the fanatical Brexiteers and their press. Tory MPs daring to “speak for England” – and all the UK nations – should stick to their guns – and others who were too frit last night should join them.


Great article, Polly ;)
 
I thoroughly dislike politicians.

We have people claiming a victory for democracy after a vote is taken by our elected representatives to frustrate the will of the electorate.

The same people also are claiming a victory for parliamentary sovereignty despite the fact they yearn to remain in an institution where we hand over all our sovereignty to unaccountable eurocrats and judiciary.

But yeah, it's "democracy".

To be honest I’m not sure I’ve seen a more ill-informed post in the thread & that’s saying something
 
Except that is not what they voted on, Tim.

They did not vote to “overturn the will of the electorate”.

As far as I am aware we are still leaving the EU sometime in March 2019.

They voted to ensure that a motley crew of opportunists, xenophobes and nasty Little Englanders will not get leave to cut any old deal they like just to get the UK the heck out of Dodge.

That would be totally unacceptable to me and how any reasonable person can be against a very detailed scrutiny of any final deal and against a robust debate and a vote in Parliament by our elected representatives is beyond me :)

Always remember Tim, the Brexit vote was won by a very slim majority and those of us whom voted against this madness demand that our voices are heard and our concerns addressed before the umbilical is eventually cut.

Thank goodness we have enough sensible parliamentarians to hold these buggers to account.

I don't believe that's the intention of most of our MPS. It's going to be nigh on impossible to agree a good deal when the unaccountable EU negotiators know that our parliament can keep sending us back to the table for new terms as often as they want. The current government will be judged by the people at the next election, I trust the people more than our pathetic parliamentarians.
 
As I stated which ever party was in power shenanigans would take place - easy being in opposition aiming for power which every opposition party drives for - That's all it was many Labour MPs bar two voted against the Brexit - Five Tory brexit tory seats voted for the amendment - if I was a voter and voted for Brexit that MP would never get my vote again as the defied the referendum result imo!
It has to be accepted its democrocy , but they forgot about their constituents vote in the referendum imo!
basic democracy - that would be that with any party MP - The dogs breakfast was down to the last PM and chancellor thinking they would win the vote then retiring how convenient of them!
A right Eton Mess - Its well known Corbyn is not a lover of the EU so if he was in power goodness knows which way he would swing in full power!
I never voted at the last election always a Labour voter - remember while all this stalls our NHS and economy is standing still - uncertainty will not help one bit over Brexit to the detriment to social care etc etc!

You voted to take back control from the EU, to make our parliament truly sovereign and now the first time that parliament has delivered a vote you don't like, you're cry arseing about it and warbling on like some stuck record about the 17.4m people. Utterly ludicrous

What's the problem with Parliament having a meaningful vote on the flnal deal anyway? Surely that's preferable to the 3 Stooges plus May coming back with something that can't in any way be reviewed in meaningful way?

But no, the Daily Nazi tells you that this is some afront to democracy a slap in the face for Brexit, so you're on one about it.
 
Referendums are for fascist and racists they love a referendum and really a debate that was settled and summarised in the early 1800s by James Madison.. Glad parliament is now woken and is beginning to scrutinize this whim which is passing and weakening as time goes by.
 
I voted for the OUT campaign - you could have voted for the remain Campaign - All had a mixture of MPs from both side in them - Out won OK!

I believe he's referring to the many posts you have made in support of Tony Blair's 'labour party'. It's a good point, and rather illuminating.
 
I don't believe that's the intention of most of our MPS. It's going to be nigh on impossible to agree a good deal when the unaccountable EU negotiators know that our parliament can keep sending us back to the table for new terms as often as they want. The current government will be judged by the people at the next election, I trust the people more than our pathetic parliamentarians.

I've been through this before with Joe and OldBlue, but the EU are just as accountable as our own politicians, as their setup is nearly identical to our own.
 
I've been through this before with Joe and OldBlue, but the EU are just as accountable as our own politicians, as their setup is nearly identical to our own.

Except ordinary folk have never had the chance of voting Mr Barnier, Verhofstadt etc. The EU we voted democratically to join is nothing like the EU we are now so harshly embedded in that we can barely leave. We are Henry VIII. We can't seem to get an amicable divorce. So we need to force it ourself and go our own way...
 
Except ordinary folk have never had the chance of voting Mr Barnier, Verhofstadt etc. The EU we voted democratically to join is nothing like the EU we are now so harshly embedded in that we can barely leave. We are Henry VIII. We can't seem to get an amicable divorce. So we need to force it ourself and go our own way...

That's because Mr Barnier isn't anything of note. He was a MEP previously (which obviously are very much voted for), and he's been selected by the European Commission to lead their negotiation. He holds no senior position aside from this role. It's akin to Farage being given a role on the British negotiating team.

Likewise with Verhofstadt. He was Belgian prime minister (elected) and an MEP (elected). He was then put forward to lead the European Commission by the heads of states (elected) in the liberal consortium he's a member of and has been nominated by the (elected) European Parliament to represent them in negotiations. In other words, he's as accountable as Davis is.

Tell me though. In terms of sovereignty, how much do you think would have been ceded during TTIP? Or indeed any other trade deal?
 
Except ordinary folk have never had the chance of voting Mr Barnier, Verhofstadt etc. The EU we voted democratically to join is nothing like the EU we are now so harshly embedded in that we can barely leave. We are Henry VIII. We can't seem to get an amicable divorce. So we need to force it ourself and go our own way...
Do we get the chance to choose the cabinet here?

No, our elected representatives decide who they should be, seriously what’s the difference?
 
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