elstone on os

[Makis]

About us moving to Anfield, cough, splutter, cough. Oh My >>>>>>>>>>>

Well, there are people who think moving to Kirkby is a great idea. Moving to Anfield is, at worst, only slightly more stupid idea.

 

[billytoffee]

Makis please read my comments in my previous posts again and keep the folowing in mind:

I use analogies to illustrate my points and my opinions. if this is not straight talking enough for you then sorry - if on the other hand I am not articulate enough for you and this leads you to believe my points are weak then again sorry - my keyboard and english skills are what they are and we may differ in our ability to converse or interact via the medium of an online forum.

Try to resist disecting the post into little comments or sound bites that may appear to mean something else when shown in a different context when isolated. Read the whole post for what it is.

I'll answer some of those disected comments again to try and enlighten you further but I'm not sure how much longer I can give to one thread or what else I can say to either put your mind at rest or let you accept that we may have differing opinions but that hopefully we are on the same side

And you think people are wrong saying it looks bad?

I have not said that or implied that in any of my posts - the transport plan is one of the contentious issues where the degree of clarity or detail is not sufficient for many - I'm sure there is work to be done and that a move will make it more difficult for some to get to the ground and on the flip side it will make it easier for others. Easier for me to get to kirkby than Goodison - but that is my opinion.

I bet that if you asked any fans whether they have been treated wrongly, they'd say yes. I bet even Liverpool supporters think that.

when the RS and Man U and any of the other top 4 make out they have been wronged - it is usually bollocks and who cares what they think anyway. The rest of us know that we can call on countless Fact based occasions where it is clear to everyone not just Evertonians that we have been wronged. I maybe biased in this thought - but hey isn't that what bias is Again I'll reiterate that I was using this to illustrate Evertonians sticking together !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not to try and add value to any side of the stadium debate.

So every businessman always know what they are doing? Why do so many go bankrupt then?

dont recall saying that anywhere in my posts ?

And let's not forget theatre is the only business Kenwright has been succesful. Woods made his money selling his company, didn't he? The only enterprenour of the three is Earl, a two-time bankrupt businessman who is not a fan of Everton. He is in this for the money, that much is clear.

Theatre - business - succesful - Yes ! Would you prefer it if he had a well running corner shop and chippie in his portfolio to display a business acumen wider than the odd musical.

And if Earl is in it for the cash then there is not much that we can do about it apart from hope that along the way it brings success to us all as a club. As without that success he has not got a hope in hell of making a penny.

First you say things are well and now we are sitting on a pile of [Poor language removed]? Which is it?

You have taken my pile of [Poor language removed] comment out of the analogy and so it now sits out of context.

Things are not great and likewise they are not a pile of [Poor language removed] - we are in a much better position than the Johnson era - we are in a less succcesful phase than the 80s when we were the dogs bollocks.

We are in a state where people who would rather be optimistic in order to keep their sanity (like me) will point to the top manager we have, the great players we have in some positions the progress we have made recently at home and abroad - and think it could be a whole lot worse- step back and take a look at how bad it could be - Leeds ?

Making the wrong turn can have disastrous consequencs.

You are quite right - but in your point you say CAN have - that means MAYBE it will go wrong. If we sit where we are and do nothing then it is a given and an acceepted fact that it WILL be disastrous. The only option is too therefore take the risk and TRY !!

Or it could kill our club. Is it really worth taking that risk?

YES !!! - without doubt - better to have tried and not succeeded than to have not tried at all.

I don't buy that. And as I said, the ten million is just revenue, not profit. You have to factor in increased expenditure and debt repayments.

10 Million is just another figure on another document that they have allowed us to see - but even if it gives us 10 quid and me a seat with a view when i get to the match then it will do for me.

Whose to say that the initial projected 10 Million is not just the start and that some sort of snowball effect sees it grow exponentially - come on try some optimism

So you are basically saying that anyone who makes a few million is automatically a great businessman. Like all the people who made a fortune in the dot com bubble?

Don't remember saying that anywhere either ?

There are plenty of scumbags out there having made such fortunes from crime, drugs etc....... I have no respect for them and would not wish to see them or their cash at our club.

I dont believe that any of our current leadership have made their fortunes by nefarious means and for this I respect them. I appreciate what they have done already and what they tell us they are trying to do. Although I accept that we have to take at face value what they say. I do not know or profess to know the inner working of the club or the many business strands it entails - I just reiterate the point that I dont believe they are sat on their arses waiting for the fairy godmother from Bills latest musical to wave a wand and make it all right for us whilst making all these massive pots of cash for the current board to walk away with.

Makis having read this - at least try to agree to disagreee and accept that we differ in our opinions - Im currently living in a time zone ahead of UK and feel the need to get my head down soon so by the time you slice this one up to fit into a format of what you think i have said as opposed to what I think I've said I'll probaly be getting my head down

See you all in the morning

 

[Makis]

Try to resist disecting the post into little comments or sound bites that may appear to mean something else when shown in a different context when isolated. Read the whole post for what it is.

I do that, but I would also like you to do the same in that case.

And if you say something, I assume you mean it. It's impossible to talk with someone if he can backtrack anything by saying it was taken out of context.

when the RS and Man U and any of the other top 4 make out they have been wronged - it is usually bollocks and who cares what they think anyway. The rest of us know that we can call on countless Fact based occasions where it is clear to everyone not just Evertonians that we have been wronged. I maybe biased in this thought - but hey isn't that what bias is Again I'll reiterate that I was using this to illustrate Evertonians sticking together !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And the same can be said by other clubs. My point was that we fans are massively blinkered. We tend to forget the times we got the rub of luck and remember when things went against us. Over the season we remember the injust red cards and disallowed goals, but forget when our player stayed on the pitch when he should have walked or got an offside goal allowed. And we always remember the one time some other team got things their way and compare to that incident.

dont recall saying that anywhere in my posts ?

People tend to imply things without saying it directly. But if we agree that our glorious leaders might be wrong in this instance, then it's ok with me.

Theatre - business - succesful - Yes ! Would you prefer it if he had a well running corner shop and chippie in his portfolio to display a business acumen wider than the odd musical.

Well well, I would like to remind what you said earlier about discussion.

And if Earl is in it for the cash then there is not much that we can do about it apart from hope that along the way it brings success to us all as a club. As without that success he has not got a hope in hell of making a penny.

Of course he has. That's the thing here, he can make money from the stadium thing in various ways, not just be the increase in value of the club. He might have hoped to get a casino permit, for instance.

Things are not great and likewise they are not a pile of [Poor language removed] - we are in a much better position than the Johnson era - we are in a less succcesful phase than the 80s when we were the dogs bollocks.

People tend to forget that early on, things weren't so bad with Johnson. Things went wrong when his value started to do down (the hamper business). Remember how we bought Andrei Kanchelskis from Manchester United? Could you imagine us buying one of their better players now, instead of the fringe players we have been buying or linked with?

You are quite right - but in your point you say CAN have - that means MAYBE it will go wrong. If we sit where we are and do nothing then it is a given and an acceepted fact that it WILL be disastrous. The only option is too therefore take the risk and TRY !!

Problem is, this decision is massive. There is no going back if this road is taken, so everything should be ok, starting from the business case, which seems lacking. It is also clear the club has no clear figures on many key issues.

YES !!! - without doubt - better to have tried and not succeeded than to have not tried at all.

I think a few Leeds supporters might have a different view...

10 Million is just another figure on another document that they have allowed us to see - but even if it gives us 10 quid and me a seat with a view when i get to the match then it will do for me.

It's what Wyness said to try to sell the stadium to us. He was hardly going to go for a small number, was he?

Whose to say that the initial projected 10 Million is not just the start and that some sort of snowball effect sees it grow exponentially - come on try some optimism

Yes, we might win the League this season and everything will be rosy again.

But having read pretty much on this subject and thought about it even more I am firmly in the belief that the Kirkby stadium is WRONG for Everton Football Club. It's nothing what our heritage deserves and risks putting this club into oblivion.

Makis having read this - at least try to agree to disagreee and accept that we differ in our opinions - Im currently living in a time zone ahead of UK and feel the need to get my head down soon so by the time you slice this one up to fit into a format of what you think i have said as opposed to what I think I've said I'll probaly be getting my head down

How do you suggest we should discuss? Maybe I'm not allowed to disagree with you, but what sort of discussion would that be? I'm really trying to have a discussion here, but for some reason you don't like that?

 

[Dylan]

Here's the problem Makis. You don't appear to want to discuss things. From the 'tone' of your posts you are very aggressive and confrontational. Maybe if you sort that out more people would be willing to enter the debate.

I know people keep clear of threads when people say stuff like "Anybody defending BK now is a moron" or something to that effect (This part isn't necessarily aimed at you, just thought I'd bring it up while I was thinking about it. Unless you said that, then it is aimed at you )

 

[Makis]

Here's the problem Makis. You don't appear to want to discuss things. From the 'tone' of your posts you are very aggressive and confrontational. Maybe if you sort that out more people would be willing to enter the debate.

Well, there have been a few occasions on this forum in that last few weeks where I have just basically listed facts and what did I get in return? Nothing. Silence. For most parts it unfortunately looks like the only thing people want to debate is how great Kenwright is, what a good idea the Kirkby stadium is, what a great squad we have and how all our players are superb (except of course most people have their pet hates). Frankly, looking at most threads, it's just people agreeing with each other, unless someone thinks one of our players isn't quite as good as others think he is.

I concur that the tone of this forum is much milder than most others. With tens of thousands of Everton related posts (at a guess) I know my style is sometimes aggressive, but you only have to try to discuss on the relocation forum on Kipper for a few months to develop that.

But saying I came across aggressive, could you read the first reply I wrote to billytoffee on this thread and tell me if you honestly think that was aggressive? I asked him to read the transport document (since I find it amazing that someone can think it's ok if he knows the full facts), had a sarcastic remark about blaming others and probably the most aggressive thing on that message was this:

"Yes, change is always for the better, isn't it?"

If anything, the message was sarcastic, but hardly aggressive. But why did I take that tone? Mainly because I think he did imply that people just don't understand the transportation issues and that we should just have faith in the board to deliver. Or, that we are just plebs and should believe that what our leaders do is the right thing. I could explain this till the cows come home (actually, looking at the time, they have), but my main gripe is people defending the transport plan just because that's what the club has written. I.e. no proof needed, no interest in discussing the issues like non-parking zones around the stadium, people standing outside the Kirkby train station for an hour waiting for a train, insufficient number of buses available for the park'n ride scheme, the expectation that thousands will cycle to the match and so on. No matter what tone is taken, people just don't want to talk about these. And I don't understand it. The same people will probably moan about it if the stadium was built. Why not now? What has the club done apart from appointing David Moyes that makes you think they are infallable?

In his reply he avoided answering the one big question I asked, which I admit did annoy me.

I know people keep clear of threads when people say stuff like "Anybody defending BK now is a moron" or something to that effect (This part isn't necessarily aimed at you, just thought I'd bring it up while I was thinking about it. Unless you said that, then it is aimed at you )

Nope, don't think I have said that. I have other words to describe him

Now let's see if anyone is willing to _discuss_ these issues.

 

[billytoffee]

Makis - Once again read the posts:-

Do not not look for implied comments or acusations or slants on peoples intelligence - there are not any !!!!!!

Do not look for secret codes, read between the lines, take the first letter of the second word from each paragraph to find a message from God it wont work

To clarify for you:-

I entered this thread about Elstone I defended his performance on the 26 minute video on the OS which is all that I have to base my opinion of him on. In that defence I mentioned the Transport plan due to the fact that davek had used it as a point against him in his presentation.

I clearly stated that the laughter COULD be due to a lack of understanding on some peoples part or down to the lack of clarity and granularity of the detail of the documentation that has already been released.

This was not a contentious comment in my opinion and was not implying that those who laughed were of any less intelligence than the next man - I do not know them.

I have my opinion on the Transpot plan as I also have my opinion on the transport issues for other sites and indeed the transpot issues that exist around Goodison. This is based on what I have read and my experiences -we may well have read the same documents and have a totally diffeent understanding of what is said or what is not said. This is a fact of life !

Im am not a Transport expert, a surveyor, or a city planner - (I manage Communications Sytems) I dont consider myself qualified enough to be that opinionated that I would try to impose my view on someone else or refuse to accept that others are entitled to a different opinion. On the contrary I stated that this was the case earlier on in this thread and made this point again clearly (not implied) at which point davek accepted what I was getting at - somewhat tongue in cheek with a smiley face after it.

As the thread grew into everyones favourite Everton deabte I tried to make a number of points.

Point 1 - I wish that as Evertonians we could all be united in the cause.

I used examples of where many of us feel we have been shafted to illustrate the coming together in one voice at times of adversity. A unity of effort that I applaude and wish that was the case now ! No harm in that I believe.

I am not stupid enough to think that other clubs do not have similair thoughts on how they are treated hence the reason why I made the comment about what bias is and stated that what they say does not matter followed by a big smiley face to indicate the light hearted tone of the comment.

Point 2 - I believe that CHANGE is a must ! I have met very few people (in fact no-one) who thinks that we can just sit at Goodison as it is. Therefore I have come to accept that change is necessary. I am aware that there are a number of options that have been investigated that range from do nothing, redevelop current site, expand and redevelop current site, move to numerous sites in and around the city or just down the road. Whatever direction we go and wherever we end up My opinion is that the do nothing option will spell then end for our club just as others think that other options will spell the end. I have accepted that change is risky - but again reitterate that it is better to have tried and failed rather than stand still and watch it fade away.

Point 3 - I am pro Kirkby.
Again - my opinion based on what I have read from both sides of the fence, club and KEIOC releases or propaganda if you wish, numerous forums, media etc......

Again - I am not a City Planner, I am not an Architect, I am not a City Banker with in depth knowledge of corporate finances. You may be one or all of these - I do not know.

Consequently my opinions are based on what I have said above.

I have not as you suggested back peddled in any of my points or tried to hide behind the contextual thing - it is a statemnt of FACT clear for all to see that you have taken points or parts of sentences from different points that I have made and tried to turn them around to argue with me for some reason. That is a quick and easy stunt to pull and you could go around in circles with that kind of style forever. When you engage in that sort of practice that is how things are taken out of context - the age old Journo stunt - maybe you are a Journo as well as Banker, Architect, Surveyor Transport expert ?

It may just be that you and I speak a different language on paper - that you dont understnd my style nor I yours - but I am able to accept that your opinions differ from mine.

I would never wish to impose my opinions of anything that flicks my switch on others - that Is why I spend my life fighting for what I believe is a just cause and the democracy in which we live.

If you wish to DISCUSS issue and offer opinions on this forum then great - that is what I am here for after all. But try to look at what people ARE saying as opposed to what you think they are saying once you have carved it up, jiggled it around a bit, looked for the implied comments, factored in any sarcasm and found insults that were not there to be found.

At the end of the day I want Everton to be great again, for Me for my Son and for those that may follow.

 

[Blue Lou]

I was at the EGM and Elstone admitted that he the club didn't know how much it was going to cost to build a stadium in Kirkby.

Yet two minutes before that he was listing off prices of Goodison redevelopments. Also, in the q&a section when someone asked him how those figures were reached he refused to say because of commercial confidentiality because it contained future ticket pricing structures...

 

[davek]

I was at the EGM and Elstone admitted that he the club didn't know how much it was going to cost to build a stadium in Kirkby.

Yet two minutes before that I was listing off prices of Goodison redevelopments. Also, in the q&a section when someone asked him how those figures were reached he refused to say because of commercial confidentiality because it contained future ticket pricing structures...

The feller's a fraud...like his predecessor who's notes he was faithfully reading.

 

[Makis]

Anyone who still thinks that everything is sorted regarding transportation to the Kirkby stadium should read this ToffeeWeb article:
http://toffeeweb.com/season/07-08/commen/fan/article.asp?submissionID=9271

Simply put, it is very uncertain that it will be possible to arrange transport for 50,000 people. If it doesn't, the capacity of the stadium will be dropped, just like they did at Bolton.

 

[MaccaBill]

..when someone asked him how those figures were reached he refused to say because of commercial confidentiality because it contained future ticket pricing structures...

Lou - I chuckled at this bit, but only after the meeting was over (doh!). A clever chap like Robert could have simply costed everything at today's prices and then not given away any [hehemhem! sorry, clearing my thoat] confidential information about future pricing strategies; information that is presumably confidential simply so we, his customers, weren't frightened by the likely future cost of tickets!

 

[Makis]

So you don't need a new stadium because rich owners are prepared to build you one. Wonder what the next excuse is?

Manchester City plan super stadium - mirror.co.uk

 

[davek]

So you don't need a new stadium because rich owners are prepared to build you one. Wonder what the next excuse is?

Manchester City plan super stadium - mirror.co.uk

There goes the "you need a new stadium to attract investors" argument.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

i think i did predicy stadium development/ an extra tier earlier in the week,
*plaudits now being gratefully accepted

 

[Neiler]

Its easy, god damn it, its raining billionaires, why cant people understand it we just need a billioinaire! and a little bit !

 

[coyney]

I would settle for a bit of honesty from the board and a dose of reality from some of my fellow No voters, and maybe we could all start working together for a solution I still have not received a answer to how the club come up with a £10mill extra income ,when since this claim was made Kirkby council restrictions to me .make this impossible unless of course there is a large hike in ticket prices and by the same token we have not got the cash to suddenly build a stadium in Walton hall park as much as I would love us to.