Wat Tyler
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Bad precedent for a bad president
Current Affairs Donald Trump POS: Judgement cometh and that right soon
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Bad precedent for a bad president
Martin Alvito
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They were good shouts. The basic problem, as I see it, is that sometimes circumstances compel one group of political elites to forgive another for significant crimes, to put a broader conflict to bed. This runs the spectrum from the Civil War and the Troubles down to domestic politics more generally. In most governments, there's a level of responsibility one can ascend to where there isn't much appetite for punishing misbehavior. In Ford's case, he had the options of 'pardon Nixon' and 'not pardon', which probably burned enough bridges either way that he loses in 1976. He chose what was probably the superior short-run solution, and left the long-run problems for future generations to solve.
We did a rotten job, which human beings so often do because most political elites are old, and have short time horizons. It's easier to rationalize things like fossil fuels if one can say, "Yes, there will be problems, but I'm dealing my own children and grandchildren a much better hand than they would otherwise have." It's not a coincidence that the dyed-in-the-wool Trumpites in Congress (or Johnsonites in Parliament) are a bunch of grasping social climbers. Trump represented a pathway to power that otherwise would not have existed, and their only shot at hanging on to that power is to convince a broad swath of the electorate that he did nothing wrong, which right-wing media is happy to do because their financial interests require retaining that audience.
The story behind history in school ending with WWII, for those of us who grew up in the '80s and '90s, is interesting. There were two things at work. One is the Cold War, which caused our education system to suppress the grimmer realities of American history. Slavery was downplayed, and things like the Trail of Tears did not happen. The other is just how deeply controversial Vietnam and Watergate were. Parents and television were the source of knowledge about the '50s, '60s and '70s. For most kids, the first clue that something was wrong was a certain Billy Joel song. I was fortunate enough that it didn't go down that way, but the song still revealed just how much detail had been omitted from 'popular' history.
It would not surprise me in the least if Trump and Boris result in a similar historical 'gap' for US and UK schoolchildren. My kids are getting history all the way up to the present day, but I would bet that school boards will find themselves unable politically to resolve their conflicts over how to present this material. We're already seeing that play out all over the country for other subject matter.
I see it on a daily basis on Twitter the type of people who defend Trump from the UK , it's not a pretty sight.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
Ah, ok, I tend not to go on there….
Martin Alvito
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That's not actually true, in the sense that his record is enviable by modern standards. Nixon signed the EPA, the Endangered Species Act and the Clean Air Act into law. He went to China, extricated us from Vietnam and negotiated SALT I and the ABM treaty with the Soviets. He enforced school busing, even though he hated it, got behind the ERA (though his support was arguably wishy-washy) and pushed for the appointment of women to federal positions.
His Supreme Court picks weren't even bad. Burger was terrible, true, but Blackmun and Powell were capable, open-minded people who did good work on the Court. Rehnquist proved capable enough to later repair the damage Burger did, and elevate the Court to the status of trusted institution.
Nixon was an effective politician, as was LBJ before him, but the personal foibles that probably made them effective also led to their undoing.
Wat Tyler
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He was responsible for thousands and thousands of deaths when he “put a monkey wrench” in peace negotiations with LBJ and Vietnam.
Him and Kissinger are war criminals.
moggeridge
Dogs don't know revenge
Agree that it could look a little like that. But I feel that they're trying to pin enough on him so that the can never make a comeback in politics ever again. As mentioned by one poster earlier, the Georgia indictments are state charges and these cant be overturned. Which is a positive as there would be no pardon I think?
The thing that makes me think, our equivalent in the UK would be like Alan Sugar, becoming PM and then getting involved multiple scandals. Which, not to err to much on the side of dystopia/black mirror, I could eventually see happening. We had enough with that bozo bojo in charge...
That's only because what we are seeing from him is virtually unprecedented from any American leader in the modern era
Trump has a built in defense of "see what they're doing to me, it's political" when what he's doing no one has seen before here. Within this context, no one could ever be charged with treason or sedition, if he just made it a political argument. It's the manifestation of the evil genius of the post fairness doctrine strategy of the Right, beginning essentially with Rush Limbaugh - where everything is an attack on ME
Martin Alvito
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Effective politicians do scummy things. That's just reality. If you dig into American political heroes such as Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln, you will discover that they also did scummy things. They just don't tell you that in the public education system.
LBJ stole the Senate primary in 1948. That's well-documented fact. In many ways, the truth of that one is the precursor to the present divide over the 2020 presidential election. The truth about 1948 didn't come out (though everyone more or less knew the truth) publicly until decades later, due to the threat of retaliation. The difference this time around is that Biden stealing 2020, given the evidence and dynamics, would have required a much vaster conspiracy that isn't sustainable. The politicians in Georgia were better off if Trump won, but they couldn't produce evidence to support and didn't want to burn alongside him.
Both Nixon and LBJ were entirely self-centered people, who were capable of rising above their personal attitudes when the occasion suited to accomplish something that furthered their objectives. This enabled them to get a lot done, and destroyed them both in the end. They were incapable of perceiving the difference between a defensible immoral action, and an indefensible one. LBJ got a lot of kids killed by lying to Congress about Vietnam. Nixon did much the same with the 'monkey wrench', and lied to Congress and the public about things he did to secure what, ironically, was already a more or less certain re-election campaign.
And the upshot of all this is that, say what you want about LBJ and Nixon's politices, but they were at least effective politicians at least by the metric of how much legislation they got over the line. But certainly, they were each scummy
does 'some' include you?
It was always the plan, do what ever you want and if you get pulled up, you'll be able to drag it through the courts and hope the judges you appointed and supreme court you stacked are there to bail you out.
Oh and the closer you push this to the line, the more money you can wring out of your base.
Trump knew paying off Daniels was wrong, did it anyway
Trump knew taking documents out of the whitehouse was wrong, did it anyway. (and said he'd hoped to financially gain from it)
Calling states and asking for votes to turn up is wrong but he was so far gone at this point he thought he was untouchable. Ignorance is no excuse.
Not calling off the dogs on Jan 6 straight away was a dereliction of duty but he did it, Full ego fueled mania at this point.
If you (the general you) believe it's a political witch hunt, you're listening to the wrong people.
After Trump was impeached twice, the republicans banged on about how it set a precedent and how Biden would be impeached straight away.
Amazing what happens when you're not a two bit selfish grifter.
The GA Governor could pardon him. And I'd imagine if he got elected, thats a serious amount of clout for GA.
Still tho, this carry on will decimate any independent vote.
He'll romp the primaries and get destroyed in the General.
Most GOP politicians know this.
It'll be interesting to see if he debates.
Actually the governor can't - unless they charge their state constitution. There's a pardon board.
GA Pardons
ah, oops, good to know!
What's bolded - this has been the Republicans plan for some time, going back decades.
If you want a good read on this, check out the book Democracy in Chains, which touches on this but many other Republican policies from the 60s and forward
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