Current Affairs Donald Trump POS: Judgement cometh and that right soon

[Pittsburgh Footy]

I think the conclusion to your premise here is a large part of the problem with the current political polarisation, it relies on a cartoon of conservatives as extremists while handwaving away any criticism of analogous behaviour on the left creating a cycle of radicalisation that feeds both ways.
In reality extremism on both sides is minimal and human nature (moral preferences and the instinct to be tribal) is forcing people into political positions that are detrimental to the fabric of society. A circuit breaker is required or it will continue to deteriorate,
Trump is clearly mentally ill, that on it's own is a substantial argument.



I don't know enough about the American civil war but can you say more about why you think this is analogous?
I don't want to misrepresent your argument but without sufficient context it appears you think attempting to completely eradicate your political enemies is the only tenable solution which I am sure we can agree never works.

There are a number of paths to go in response to this. I'll keep it to just a couple thoughts:

1) What is bolded is scary, b/c while you argue Trump is clearly mentally ill, he has the OVERWHELMING support of the members of one political party; and
2) Because of what I just said above, we are long past the point where we can call what is happening simply "political differences." In the past, people with opposing viewpoints could have vociferous debate, and at the end of the day still be friends.

As for the "both sidesism" you refer to, there is nothing on the left to suggest that if a Democrat were to act like Trump, he'd still be in power. In fact, there is much more evidence to suggest that "the Left" eats their own, for much, much more benign "crimes"

For context in where I'm coming from I, for one, grew up a Republican, and was a registered Republican until Trump won the nomination in 2016. So I have some beliefs, that in theory, are way more moderate than most "liberals". As an accountant by trade that grew up with pick myself up by the bootstraps mentality, I am way more of a principled fiscal conservative than some on the left, although that has abated over the course of my career. I've generally always been socially liberal.

I cannot even have a serious conversation about anything any more, particularly with family, but also with former work colleagues I used to call friends. They are so far beyond the realm of reason that it is frightening. So I have a very hard time with simply calling out what is happening now as "both sidesism". It is just simply not true, and an oversimplification of where we are as a society right now.

 

[Martin Alvito]

There's nothing Machiavellian going in, he's not playing 4D chess, he's just a malignant narcissist whose actions are pure cope.

He is in the sense that he understands there's a sizable market for that sort of behavior in America. However, because he's a malignant narcissist, his tactics are all wrong. He lacks learning, listening and reasoning skills.

There are a number of paths to go in response to this. I'll keep it to just a couple thoughts:

1) What is bolded is scary, b/c while you argue Trump is clearly mentally ill, he has the OVERWHELMING support of the members of one political party; and
2) Because of what I just said above, we are long past the point where we can call what is happening simply "political differences." In the past, people with opposing viewpoints could have vociferous debate, and at the end of the day still be friends.

As for the "both sidesism" you refer to, there is nothing on the left to suggest that if a Democrat were to act like Trump, he'd still be in power. In fact, there is much more evidence to suggest that "the Left" eats their own, for much, much more benign "crimes"

For context in where I'm coming from I, for one, grew up a Republican, and was a registered Republican until Trump won the nomination in 2016. So I have some beliefs, that in theory, are way more moderate than most "liberals". As an accountant by trade that grew up with pick myself up by the bootstraps mentality, I am way more of a principled fiscal conservative than some on the left, although that has abated over the course of my career. I've generally always been socially liberal.

I cannot even have a serious conversation about anything any more, particularly with family, but also with former work colleagues I used to call friends. They are so far beyond the realm of reason that it is frightening. So I have a very hard time with simply calling out what is happening now as "both sidesism". It is just simply not true, and an oversimplification of where we are as a society right now.

I think the story of how we got here is quite a bit richer, and that there's plenty of blame to go around. I would argue that the repeal of the equal time doctrine, which caused the rise of Limbaugh, was the opening move in the resulting chess game that placed us in the present abyss.

There's no question that the right, with its more lockstep viewpoint on social issues, is prepared to tolerate far more misbehavior by politicians than the left. More often than not, there's significant appetite on the left to take down any given influential politician. The extreme ones are viewed as liabilities by the more mainstream ones, and the extremists view the mainstream ones as part of the problem.

The right, being both outnumbered and more homogenous, is much more prepared to circle the wagons and defend its own. Fox and its ilk have taken shameless advantage of that, but there were elements of present politics in the Republican responses to both Watergate and Iran-Contra.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Hearing the overview of the situation on the news it sounds like an episode from Black Mirror.

 

[longers]

Lol

 

[TN Toffee]

I don't know enough about the American civil war but can you say more about why you think this is analogous?
I don't want to misrepresent your argument but without sufficient context it appears you think attempting to completely eradicate your political enemies is the only tenable solution which I am sure we can agree never works.

Was only citing two examples in which actual sedition against the government not being swiftly and harshly dealt with ended up working out poorly for the side who chose to be lenient. Beyond that they aren't particularly analogous. Germany was reaping what they had sown within a decade of not dealing with the Nazis early on, and they had literally destroyed the entire continent within two. Here in the US it was (and continues to be) a much slower burn. It actually took several decades for the issues to really start rearing their head, but now 160 years later, the long-reaching effects are so deeply ingrained into the fabric of our society, I'm not sure we'll ever truly be able to put the Civil War behind us.

Others who have mentioned Nixon's pardon here are also probably right. However, as a child of the 90's, that whole saga falls into a strange blind spot where I actually know very little about it. I'm not old enough to have lived through it, but also not young enough where it really qualified as "history" yet and we learned about it in school.

 

[PhilM]

Probably. I don’t know what it’s like for Americans but tbh there is a feeling that Trump is now being hounded by the current political elite. Yet people over here in the U.K. , not everyone obviously, think it’s all a tad unfair, politicised, and that if it carries on he may even be seen as a victim of a political assassination……

Really? The way I read the situation is that in multiple states (and at a federal level), they've found evidence to substantiate charges for multiple crimes.

There may be an element of looking into Trump because of who he is or what he stands for, but these charges and the evidence don't appear to be unfair.

I suspect the people over here who may feel that it's a tad unfair or overly politicised may have leanings towards Trump.

 

[Lobster Johnson]

While you can't stop the current prosecutions as they are already in train, I think it would be analogous to declaring him unfit for trial due to diminished responsibility .

While I wouldn't typically justify the use a persons mental illness as a political weapon, Trump has demonstrated himself an existential threat that requires a bi-partisan solution.
It also creates the platform that you are refusing to engage with the insanity and highlight his behaviour for what it is.
There's nothing Machiavellian going in, he's not playing 4D chess, he's just a malignant narcissist whose actions are pure cope.

Well yeah, so let him face trial so people can see his desperate efforts to destroy a republic so he doesn't have to look like a loser.

 

[moggeridge]

Probably

With Georgia looking to use the RICO law against the conspirators, I think we will see a lot of those charged potentially switching and aiding the investigation…

 

[PhilM]

With Georgia looking to use the RICO law against the conspirators, I think we will see a lot of those charged potentially switching and aiding the investigation…

I was reading in an article that if found guilty under the RICO laws (namely racketeering) it's a minimum of five years custodial with sentences mostly above that.

Others said a minimum of five to twenty years, or a large fine. I'm unsure of which is correct, but if it's the former or even a strong possibility of it...

... I suspect we may see a plea deal from one or more individuals if there are serious concerns they may be found guilty. That may be Trump's undoing.

 

[Lobster Johnson]

Probably. I don’t know what it’s like for Americans but tbh there is a feeling that Trump is now being hounded by the current political elite. Yet people over here in the U.K. , not everyone obviously, think it’s all a tad unfair, politicised, and that if it carries on he may even be seen as a victim of a political assassination……

Pete, how can it not be politicised. There are a vanishingly small number of people with the clout and connections to attempt to overthrow an election or launch an insurrection and they're all political beings.

 

[mahermi1]

Probably. I don’t know what it’s like for Americans but tbh there is a feeling that Trump is now being hounded by the current political elite. Yet people over here in the U.K. , not everyone obviously, think it’s all a tad unfair, politicised, and that if it carries on he may even be seen as a victim of a political assassination……

Bit strong Pete to be accusing of Political assassination, when you have been found guilty of multiple crimes.

 

[Moomin]

Really? The way I read the situation is that in multiple states (and at a federal level), they've found evidence to substantiate charges for multiple crimes.

There may be an element of looking into Trump because of who he is or what he stands for, but these charges and the evidence don't appear to be unfair.

I suspect the people over here who may feel that it's a tad unfair or overly politicised may have leanings towards Trump.

Will be the people who have Brexit, Union Jacks in there bio on social media and also claim Climate change to be a hoax

 

[peteblue]

Will be the people who have Brexit, Union Jacks in there bio on social media and also claim Climate change to be a hoax

Trump mate, the thread is about Trump….

 

[Moomin]

Trump mate, the thread is about Trump….

They will be the people who back Trump in this country.

 

[peteblue]

They will be the people who back Trump in this country.

I‘m not aware of anyone backing Trump, and certainly I’m not. For me it’s the sheer scale and width of the indictments that seems a bit iffy. Almost like throw enough mud and keep throwing it until something sticks.…..