Does Cahill hold us back

[RFUS]

He's not out wide. Look at it this way:

_______Valdes
Alves Pique Puyol Abidal
_Busquets Mascherano
__Messi Xavi Iniesta
________Villa

Are Messi and Iniesta out wide? No. They just patrol from one flank or the other. You have to have someone like Arteta as the focal point to spread the play. Cahill couldn't do that (even if he could) AND get in to the box to support Saha as well.

Moyes switching his wingers is further demonstration of his lack of imagination. They are wide midfielders and they don't have either the pace or the skill to beat their men. Putting them on the other side of the park won't change that. It's typical Moyes 'percentage football'. Notice how Coleman (who can go past a man) never ends up on the opposite side.

Has Zog moved now? Someone like him would be ideal for that role because they're too good to be stuck out on the flank in a traditional 4-4-2.

I don't know, mate. I'm just not too comfortable with having Cahill on the left, or right. I just don't see how it would suit his game in the slightest. It comes across as a desperate attempt to shoehorn him into the side.

On the other hand if Cahill was central then he'd be useless as a creative outlet.

If this proves anything it's that this is not a desirable problem to have to solve for Moyes. My issue though is that he doesn't seem to even attempt to solve it. He only stopped sticking with the 4-5-1/4-4-1-1 with Cahill behind the striker setup because Cahill left for international duty. It's the same criticism you can throw at him for when he plays young players -- only when he physically has to.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

See my previous post. He'd be on the left side of Arteta, not on the left wing.

Barca don't line up like that, but even if they did, Iniesta and Messi can pass, dribble and create chances. Completely different strengths to Tim Cahill, who possesses none of the traits you'd expect in a inverted wide player, let alone an out and out winger.

You'd may aswell just play him behind Saha and use Mikel on the left.

 

[billycopper]

I don't know, mate. I'm just not too comfortable with having Cahill on the left, or right. I just don't see how it would suit his game in the slightest. It comes across as a desperate attempt to shoehorn him into the side.

On the other hand if Cahill was central then he'd be useless as a creative outlet.

If this proves anything it's that this is not a desirable problem to have to solve for Moyes. My issue though is that he doesn't seem to even attempt to solve it. He only stopped sticking with the 4-5-1/4-4-1-1 with Cahill behind the striker setup because Cahill left for international duty. It's the same criticism you can throw at him for when he plays young players -- only when he physically has to.

I think you'd need to see it. He wouldn't be any more left than if he was playing on the left side of a central midfield pair.

I think the formation I'm suggesting would solve a lot of our problems. I would be very surprised if Moyes went for anything other than 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2 next season though.

 

[billycopper]

Barca don't line up like that, but even if they did, Iniesta and Messi can pass, dribble and create chances. Completely different strengths to Tim Cahill, who possesses none of the traits you'd expect in a inverted wide player, let alone an out and out winger.

You'd may aswell just play him behind Saha and use Mikel on the left.

Barca play with two anchors, agreed? Villa plays up front by himself, agreed? The only point you're quibbling over then is where Messi fits in. Cahill actually provided as many assists as Arteta last season and only one fewer than Osman. He's no Iniesta, but is he too dissimilar to Muller or Kuyt?

 

[billycopper]

I don't know, mate. I'm just not too comfortable with having Cahill on the left, or right. I just don't see how it would suit his game in the slightest. It comes across as a desperate attempt to shoehorn him into the side.

On the other hand if Cahill was central then he'd be useless as a creative outlet.

If this proves anything it's that this is not a desirable problem to have to solve for Moyes. My issue though is that he doesn't seem to even attempt to solve it. He only stopped sticking with the 4-5-1/4-4-1-1 with Cahill behind the striker setup because Cahill left for international duty. It's the same criticism you can throw at him for when he plays young players -- only when he physically has to.

Lets try it again with teams that we can relate to more easily than Barca.

__________Van Stekelenberg
Van der Weil Heitinga Mathijsen Pieters
________Van Bommel De Jong
_______Kuyt Sneijder Robben
___________Van Persie

_____________Neuer
Lahm Mertesacker Badstuber Boateng
______Schweinsteiger Khedira
_______Muller Ozil Podolski
____________Gomez

Cahill would be playing just off Arteta. Baines would overlap to give the width, so he could tuck in, and he could get into the box because he's got so many men covering for him. He wouldn't be expected to create anything. That will be done by Baines, Coleman, Osman and Arteta. He would play exactly as he does now, but when he comes back to defend it will be with a bias to the left.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Barca play with two anchors, agreed? Villa plays up front by himself, agreed? The only point you're quibbling over then is where Messi fits in. Cahill actually provided as many assists as Arteta last season and only one fewer than Osman. He's no Iniesta, but is he too dissimilar to Muller or Kuyt?

No, I'd say Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta are there first choice midfield three. Villa plays as a left sided forward and Messi starts centrally, drifting all over the place.

He has some similarities with Dirk Kuyt. I wouldn't want either of them playing in a wide position for us, to be honest. I've also seen him play there, and it wasn't a pretty sight.

 

[Brownie]

Lets try it again with teams that we can relate to more easily than Barca.

__________Van Stekelenberg
Van der Weil Heitinga Mathijsen Pieters
________Van Bommel De Jong
_______Kuyt Sneijder Robben
___________Van Persie

_____________Neuer
Lahm Mertesacker Badstuber Boateng
______Schweinsteiger Khedira
_______Muller Ozil Podolski
____________Gomez

Cahill would be playing just off Arteta. Baines would overlap to give the width, so he could tuck in, and he could get into the box because he's got so many men covering for him. He wouldn't be expected to create anything. That will be done by Baines, Coleman, Osman and Arteta. He would play exactly as he does now, but when he comes back to defend it will be with a bias to the left.

Same thing to be honest mate, goals. If you look at the players in those formations, nearly all of the front 4 in each of them I would call forwards. Of our players in the same positions I'd call Saha a forward and Cahill a forward at a push.

 

[billycopper]

No, I'd say Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta are there first choice midfield three. Villa plays as a left sided forward and Messi starts centrally, drifting all over the place.

He has some similarities with Dirk Kuyt. I wouldn't want either of them playing in a wide position for us, to be honest. I've also seen him play there, and it wasn't a pretty sight.

If you look at the Barca squad, their defensive midfielders by trade are Busquets, Mascherano, Keita and Adriano. They let Yaya go too. That's a lot of midfield anchors to have if only one of them will play. I think the truth is probably somewhere between both viewpoints. They probably weren't the best example to use, because they are so fluid.

Kuyt plays down the right hand side for Liverpool, but he's not a right winger. You don't see him taking on full backs and getting to the byeline. It's just a starting point. He scored 13 goals last season, so it shows that he can still support the striker from there. And Cahill would be even more infield.

 

[billycopper]

Same thing to be honest mate, goals. If you look at the players in those formations, nearly all of the front 4 in each of them I would call forwards. Of our players in the same positions I'd call Saha a forward and Cahill a forward at a push.

Holland reached the World Cup final without having the tightest of defences (ahem Heitinga) and Germany creamed us with a striker who couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo for his club side. We wouldn't have any less forwards on the pitch than we do under Moyes's current system, but we'd have better balance.

 

[royal_blue]

Moyes holds us back. Cahill can play in CM in a 4-4-2 totally. It's not right what Moyes does to him and does to Everton. Come on Moyesy!

 

[ToxtethBlue]

If you look at the Barca squad, their defensive midfielders by trade are Busquets, Mascherano, Keita and Adriano. They let Yaya go too. That's a lot of midfield anchors to have if only one of them will play. I think the truth is probably somewhere between both viewpoints. They probably weren't the best example to use, because they are so fluid.

Kuyt plays down the right hand side for Liverpool, but he's not a right winger. You don't see him taking on full backs and getting to the byeline. It's just a starting point. He scored 13 goals last season, so it shows that he can still support the striker from there. And Cahill would be even more infield.

Keita and Adriano aren't holding midfielders. Busquets and Mascherano are, and they either go for one of the two with Xavi and Iniesta to the right and left side of the holding player. Xavi operates slightly deeper than Iniesta, who's more of a traditional number 10.

I know Kuyt's not a right winger, and I've pointed out that there are many different styles of wide players. I don't have a problem with that at all, but Cahill doesn't come into any category. Kuyt is more mobile, has better movement and is much more comfortable getting the ball out of his feet and crossing the ball. Technically, he's a better footballer, and I wouldn't even like to see Dirk Kuyt outwide for us.

You seem too concerned about getting your favorite players into a starting eleven. It just looks very unbalanced to me. As I said, you could easily push Cahill behind Saha and use Arteta on the left. You've still got that dog**** centre midfield, but there's more balance in forward areas.

 

[icburns]

I've seen Sergio Busquets' name thrown around a bit here. While Cahill is perhaps the best header of the ball in the Premier League era, the only time I've seen Busquets use his head is when he falls to the ground and clutches at his face in apparent agony. I don't care how many passes he can string together, I can't stand him. Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

 

[billycopper]

Keita and Adriano aren't holding midfielders. Busquets and Mascherano are, and they either go for one of the two with Xavi and Iniesta to the right and left side of the holding player. Xavi operates slightly deeper than Iniesta, who's more of a traditional number 10.

I know Kuyt's not a right winger, and I've pointed out that there are many different styles of wide players. I don't have a problem with that at all, but Cahill doesn't come into any category. Kuyt is more mobile, has better movement and is much more comfortable getting the ball out of his feet and crossing the ball. Technically, he's a better footballer, and I wouldn't even like to see Dirk Kuyt outwide for us.

You seem too concerned about getting your favorite players into a starting eleven. It just looks very unbalanced to me. As I said, you could easily push Cahill behind Saha and use Arteta on the left. You've still got that dog**** centre midfield, but there's more balance in forward areas.

Keita definitely does play as an anchor, but I don't want to get too far in to this in case you notice that I've missed Pedro out. ha Germany and Holland were better examples.

If I was playing Cahill on the left of a midfield three I wouldn't be expecting him to cross or take men on. It's a position where, if he's taking time getting back from an attack, he's not going to leave us open in a formation that will hopefully play more to the strengths of other people. He's there just so that he's on the pitch. When he's not defending, he'll be in the box with Saha.

We could use Arteta on the left. He would do equally as well there. But, if Cahill is getting forward looking for goals, then we've got no one in the middle bringing others in to play.

It's easy for you to criticise. Let's hear your solution.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Keita definitely does play as an anchor, but I don't want to get too far in to this in case you notice that I've missed Pedro out. ha Germany and Holland were better examples.

If I was playing Cahill on the left of a midfield three I wouldn't be expecting him to cross or take men on. It's a position where, if he's taking time getting back from an attack, he's not going to leave us open in a formation that will hopefully play more to the strengths of other people. He's there just so that he's on the pitch. When he's not defending, he'll be in the box with Saha.

We could use Arteta on the left. He would do equally as well there. But, if Cahill is getting forward looking for goals, then we've got no one in the middle bringing others in to play.

It's easy for you to criticise. Let's hear your solution.

My solution with Cahill in the side?

Howard

Coleman
Jagielka
Distin
Baines

Barkley
Fellaini
Osman
Arteta

Cahill

Saha

Something like that really.

 

[kenada_blue]

My starting 11 wouldnt accommodate Cahill.

Moyes' will...even if it doesnt work.

Nuff said.