Does Cahill hold us back

[ToxtethBlue]

He has and can play as an orthodox centre midfielder. We aren't talking about a luxury player here, Cahill works hard and is very capable defensively. He's just not better than what we currently have in that position, and we shouldn't go out of our way to shoehorn him into the side.

 

[billycopper]

He played as a deep sitting midfielder for a couple of games in 2009 and didn't look too out of place.

If we've got Arteta on the left, Coleman or Barkley on the right and Beckford playing with Saha, I think we'd have enough to trouble teams. The 4-4-1-1 seems to be as much about Moyes being cautious and wanting to crowd the midfield, as it is about being a vehicle for Cahill. He can be a bit over-enthusiastic in the tackle and he's not the most mobile, but that didn't stop Ferguson from playing Scholes in a deeper role. I think it's definitely one option to have a look at.

 

[RFUS]

If we played Cahill centrally over Fellaini, Arteta or Osman, I'd cry.

I'm not saying it would be like putting Howard up front. Just that Cahill would be incredibly average there, and when contrasted to the options we do have available, it would be a terrible decision.

As Toccy says we shouldn't shoehorn him into the side. You shouldn't do that with anyone. You should use everyone you have available to make the best possible XI for the task at hand.

 

[Brownie]

He has and can play as an orthodox centre midfielder. We aren't talking about a luxury player here, Cahill works hard and is very capable defensively. He's just not better than what we currently have in that position, and we shouldn't go out of our way to shoehorn him into the side.

Don't know about very capable defensively mate, he can hardly tackle. That said I've always maintained he will do a decent job wherever he's asked to play as he's a good footballer. I can't recall seeing him play somewhere and thinking 'hes having trouble there'. Positioning and tactical discipline are certainly some of his strong points.

 

[billycopper]

If we played Cahill centrally over Fellaini, Arteta or Osman, I'd cry.

I'm not saying it would be like putting Howard up front. Just that Cahill would be incredibly average there, and when contrasted to the options we do have available, it would be a terrible decision.

As Toccy says we shouldn't shoehorn him into the side. You shouldn't do that with anyone. You should use everyone you have available to make the best possible XI for the task at hand.

Maybe this would be the best system?

__________Howard
Coleman Jagielka Distin Baines
_______Neville Fellaini
____Osman Arteta Cahill
___________Saha

-We'd have two anchors to cover for Coleman and Baines on their raids forward.
-Osman would be tucked in on the right so that he could influence the play, rather than being stuck out on the wing.
-Arteta would be central to pull the strings and further forward than we've seen him recently.
-Cahill would be like Kuyt for Holland or Muller for Germany in that his position is arbitrary. He's not expected to stick to the left, but he can drop back in their when we're defending.
-The system includes almost all our most influential players in their preferred positions and can be easily adapted. For example, if we're chasing a game we can withdraw Neville and put Beckford up front with Saha.
-It would allow us to include many of our younger players, as they wouldn't become isolated or exposed defensively.
-It's been proven to work by Barca and all the top international teams.

 

[Brownie]

Far too defensive for me billy, how would we score goals?

 

[RFUS]

Maybe this would be the best system?

__________Howard
Coleman Jagielka Distin Baines
_______Neville Fellaini
____Osman Arteta Cahill
___________Saha

-We'd have two anchors to cover for Coleman and Baines on their raids forward.
-Osman would be tucked in on the right so that he could influence the play, rather than being stuck out on the wing.
-Arteta would be central to pull the strings and further forward than we've seen him recently.
-Cahill would be like Kuyt for Holland or Muller for Germany in that his position is arbitrary. He's not expected to stick to the left, but he can drop back in their when we're defending.
-The system includes almost all our most influential players in their preferred positions and can be easily adapted. For example, if we're chasing a game we can withdraw Neville and put Beckford up front with Saha.
-It would allow us to include many of our younger players, as they wouldn't become isolated or exposed defensively.
-It's been proven to work by Barca and all the top international teams.

I'd have Cahill start in the center with Arteta on the left, and I'd pick Rodwell over Neville, but yeah I quite like that. I'd probably want Ossie and Arteta to switch flanks like Gueye and Bily did when we last played 4-2-3-1.

Not for every game, mind. I want to see 2 out and out strikers on the pitch where possible, against suitable opposition.

But yeah it's a decent shout. I'd rather see us with a proper winger in the somewhere, but by having Coleman and Baines we should get width on both sides. Coleman doesn't really provide that at RM, as he like Baines is best on the overlap.

 

[billycopper]

I'd have Cahill start in the center with Arteta on the left, and I'd pick Rodwell over Neville, but yeah I quite like that. I'd probably want Ossie and Arteta to switch flanks like Gueye and Bily did when we last played 4-2-3-1.

Not for every game, mind. I want to see 2 out and out strikers on the pitch where possible, against suitable opposition.

But yeah it's a decent shout. I'd rather see us with a proper winger in the somewhere, but by having Coleman and Baines we should get width on both sides. Coleman doesn't really provide that at RM, as he like Baines is best on the overlap.

It's a bit strange that I've given you the option of Arteta in the middle (the Sneijder, Xavi or Ozil role), directing traffic and you want to replace him with Cahill! ha We could interchange other positions without much drama. Personally, I feel that switching flanks is an old trick used when wingers aren't getting much joy out of their fullbacks. If it was such a clever ploy you'd see Valencia popping up on the left for United and Malouda on the right for Chelsea. The system would be fluid enough to accommodate it though.

Barca play that way near enough every game. As they say, formations are neutral. It's tactics that are either attacking or defensive. If we were playing a team at Goodison who parked the bus, Coleman and Baines could effectively play as wingers, without worrying about leaving us exposed. We'd then stretch the opposition, leaving Osman, Arteta and Cahill to exploit the gaps.

Holland have Robben, Germany have Podolski and Barca have Messi. We'd probably have to sacrifice Ossie to include a winger. We could switch Cahill to the right and have someone like N'Zogbia on the left.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Because you've also given him the option of using Cahill on the left, which is a bit **** really.

 

[billycopper]

Far too defensive for me billy, how would we score goals?

Coleman and Baines would be wingbacks, getting as far forward as Dani Alves or Sergio Ramos. Cahill would play pretty much his normal game, getting into the box to support Saha. That would leave Osman and Arteta free to make use of any space in the final third without having to worry too much about their defensive responsibilities.

As I said, it's used by Holland, Germany and Barca. Do they have a problem scoring goals?

 

[billycopper]

Because you've also given him the option of using Cahill on the left, which is a bit **** really.

Cahill would be as much on the flank as Kuyt is for Holland or Muller is for Germany. That's just where he drops back in to when we're defending.

 

[RFUS]

It's a bit strange that I've given you the option of Arteta in the middle (the Sneijder, Xavi or Ozil role), directing traffic and you want to replace him with Cahill! ha We could interchange other positions without much drama. Personally, I feel that switching flanks is an old trick used when wingers aren't getting much joy out of their fullbacks. If it was such a clever ploy you'd see Valencia popping up on the left for United and Malouda on the right for Chelsea. The system would be fluid enough to accommodate it though.

Barca play that way near enough every game. As they say, formations are neutral. It's tactics that are either attacking or defensive. If we were playing a team at Goodison who parked the bus, Coleman and Baines could effectively play as wingers, without worrying about leaving us exposed. We'd then stretch the opposition, leaving Osman, Arteta and Cahill to exploit the gaps.

Holland have Robben, Germany have Podolski and Barca have Messi. We'd probably have to sacrifice Ossie to include a winger. We could switch Cahill to the right and have someone like N'Zogbia on the left.

I'd have Cahill in the middle simply because it would be a lot harder to get him on the end of crosses if he was out wide!

As for alternating flanks, Valencia and Malouda are adept wingers. Arteta and Osman are right footed central midfielders. I only suggested alternating flanks occasionally as a potential, albeit obvious, way of switching it up a bit in a game if it's not going to plan.

And don't ever mention N'Zogbia again! Thankfully he's now signed for Villa so we can move on.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Cahill would be as much on the flank as Kuyt is for Holland or Muller is for Germany. That's just where he drops back in to when we're defending.

Both players have higher levels of technical ability and are much more comfortable in wide positions. I've seen Cahill play outwide for us before, both left and right, and he definitely does struggle there. The only useful thing he'd do is compete for long diagonal balls from our fullbacks.

There's nothing wrong with the formation. It's the players who are occupying the roles that's the problem.

 

[billycopper]

I'd have Cahill in the middle simply because it would be a lot harder to get him on the end of crosses if he was out wide!

As for alternating flanks, Valencia and Malouda are adept wingers. Arteta and Osman are right footed central midfielders. I only suggested alternating flanks occasionally as a potential, albeit obvious, way of switching it up a bit in a game if it's not going to plan.

And don't ever mention N'Zogbia again! Thankfully he's now signed for Villa so we can move on.

He's not out wide. Look at it this way:

_______Valdes
Alves Pique Puyol Abidal
_Busquets Mascherano
__Messi Xavi Iniesta
________Villa

Are Messi and Iniesta out wide? No. They just patrol from one flank or the other. You have to have someone like Arteta as the focal point to spread the play. Cahill couldn't do that (even if he could) AND get in to the box to support Saha as well.

Moyes switching his wingers is further demonstration of his lack of imagination. They are wide midfielders and they don't have either the pace or the skill to beat their men. Putting them on the other side of the park won't change that. It's typical Moyes 'percentage football'. Notice how Coleman (who can go past a man) never ends up on the opposite side.

Has Zog moved now? Someone like him would be ideal for that role because they're too good to be stuck out on the flank in a traditional 4-4-2.

 

[billycopper]

Both players have higher levels of technical ability and are much more comfortable in wide positions. I've seen Cahill play outwide for us before, both left and right, and he definitely does struggle there. The only useful thing he'd do is compete for long diagonal balls from our fullbacks.

There's nothing wrong with the formation. It's the players who are occupying the roles that's the problem.

See my previous post. He'd be on the left side of Arteta, not on the left wing.