Council pushing for EFC & LFC as enablers to Open Outer Loop Line

[OneTrueLegend]

I have read much of what has been posted, I dont want to wade into this too much as it seems to be an emotive issue for some of us...........

However I will say that if this were to happen I think it would be good for both clubs in the city, as well as Alder Hay Hospital amd people who live and work in the districts mentioned.

Lets just wait and see if it happens

 

[edge]

It does not. A small rear access road at Sainsbury's at Knotty Ash is all that covers a tiny part of the trackbed.



What great expense? The trackbed tunnels and long span bridges are still there on the eastern section of the Outer Loop.



The Bootle Branch Line can only access Lime St station mainline at one end and Bootle, going towards Southport at the other. Not a practical line, unless much more money is spent. Liverpool FC also see the limitations of the line. That is why the Council are looking at the full implementation of the far superior Outer Loop line, with a number of good stadium sites on it, and using both clubs as enablers. It says so in post No. 1, the Council document. I never made it up, the link is there to the Council.

The success of Arsenal's Emirates has made clubs and councils re-evaluate.

The line to bootle and southport to edge hill it is aready in use for freight and only needs stations not everything else, and its in merseytravels plans i havnt made it up, the thinking behind it is to give southport and other merseyrail stations access to the mainline using edge hill as a hub, as the line between there and manchester us being upgraded ,the disused tunnel towards chinatown and on to just past brunswick station, was looked at at the same time it in good nick despite flooding in parts.
As i siad the council, merseytravel ect have aready run a passenger train down it and had engineers survey it, i have talked to them while they were doing it, i wish they would open the loop but its not going to happen any time soon, there is a wish list setting out more stations but the loop isnt on it there are stations for around county rd, leeds st, litherland and others around merseyside. merseytravel arnt investing in new projects as they have had millions cut off there future works bujet and even some smaller projects arnt getting done.
As for expence there is no inferstucture in place tracks,power,water, signals,stations fences, all public access would have to be blocked to the line.the bridges have had no maintenace for train traffic for years so may or may not be fit for purpose,
The cherry lane station alone was costed at 1.5 million and thats on an existing line, the entire line would have to be redone from scratch and then encompassed into the existing rail network, the cost of the the edge hill manchester upgrade is over a hundred and sixty odd million thats just upgrading the track not new work to the track signals fences ect they are already in place ,the loop would be many times that,and the goverment, network rail, or you through your rates to fund mersytravel arnt going to find that sort of cash, and do you think people in wirral ,sefton, lancs are going to pay higher rates for it to get done, the all contribute to merseytravel?
For the football clubs to benifit they would have to move and we have seen what trouble this can bring its a none starter, a good idea in an ideal world , but its not going to happen . like i siad i wish it would, i have worked in the rail industry for twenty odd years and have never seen things as tight as they are everthing is getting sqeezed for profits for shareholders not running a better rail. ps the line at halewood now leads onto an estate, a main rd or a dirt track onto halewood station platform.

as an example of what you are up agianst,knotty ash former train station and loop line current picture, west derby ect are pretty much the same it would be a hugh job.

 

[Inner-city]

The line to bootle and southport to edge hill it is aready in use for freight and only needs stations not everything else, and its in merseytravels plans

It needs electrification as it is diesel only. It is being electrified soon. What Merseytravel think and the Council think are now quite different. Merseytravel have only half a clue being a lot of train spotters. They know nothing of economic and social needs of a community.

In the past years four main projects have emerged that require rapid-transit rail and have changed rail priorities in Liverpool/Merseyside:

1. EFC stadium,
2. LFC stadium,
3. Liverpool Waters,
4. Wirral Waters.

Apart from "considering" the Bootle line for passengers for Stanley Park stadium (if it goes ahead), Merseytravel have made no provision for the above. They haven't got a clue, that is why the Council are moving in.

Southport has access to Lime St with a change at Moorfields. Or a train to Wigan from Southport. I know all about the passenger train on the Bootle line, it was in 2007 or 2008 and had Dept for Transport, LFC, Council etc on it. What this joy ride achieved I do not know. Thinking is now different, to get both clubs on a superior line. The Bootle line is NOT well connected unless there is large engineering works at Kirkdale turning the train back to Liverpool centre on the Northern Line.

merseytravel arnt investing in new projects as they have had millions cut off there future works bujet and even some smaller projects arnt getting done.

The coalition is more lenient on transport spending now. If a solid case is put forward, using old lines which they like, it will get priority.

As for expence there is no inferstucture in place tracks,power,water, signals,stations fences, all public access would have to be blocked to the line.the bridges have had no maintenace for train traffic for years so may or may not be fit for purpose,

The eastern section of the Outer Loop is safeguarded, with long span bridges intact. The main expense, the land of line and the bridges is still there. No Compulsory Purchase Orders to rip though districts, as they are doing with the silly tram scheme, just lay the tracks and update the stations. That is why the council have homed in on this.

The Cherry lane station was costed at £2 to £3 million, which is buttons.

the cost of the the edge hill manchester upgrade is over a hundred and sixty odd million thats just upgrading the track not new work to the track signals fences ect they are already in place ,the loop would be many times that,

The electrification of around 50 miles of track from Liverpool-Manchester and the branches is not cheaper than bringing the few miles of the Outer Loop line into commission. What world are you in? The Outer Loop recommissioning would be buttons in comparison. The eastern section of the Outer Loop can extend into Sefton at Aintree if need be. People in Sefton would not pay higher rates for a rail line not in their borough - no one does anywhere.

For the football clubs to benifit they would have to move

That is generally the case. EFC are wanting to move. Liverpool FC are hampered by a poor location with a small station, when built, at Cherry Lane, which is on a poorly connected line, and a planned stadium that is too small - they saw what Arsenal did, with 98% occupancy, who want to extend to 70,000.

i have worked in the rail industry for twenty odd years and have never seen things as tight as they are

The economic and social impact of rapid-transit rail is something which is beyond the average rail worker.

Many stations are near intact, with platforms, on the Eastern section of the Outer Loop Line

Merseytravel f***ed up when they planned ill-conceived trams when the city has a metro that is easily extended. They still want to get this silly idea on-line after HM Gvmt cancelled the silly scheme, still spending millions on CPOs etc. The Det for Transport are not so dumb. Trams are "the Emperors new clothes", they are just ridiculously expensive buses. The novelty of using trams would soon wear off as people became aware that they are just glorified buses, that get stuck in traffic jams. HMG is now cold on trams but silly Neal Scales of Merseytravel can't see this. The disastrous £500million, and rising by the hour, Edinburgh tram scheme only replaces the Number 22 bus, see the last 10 minutes of the TV programme below From position 49.50:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010jqxd/The_Big_Debate_The_Economy/

Liverpool City Council have to step in to act as the driver to get the two clubs together onto existing safeguarded rapid-transit lines to get some sense into the situation of transport provision for the two clubs and get some rapid-transit rail in east of the city. That is what the Council are doing. I never made it up.

 

[Inner-city]

I have read much of what has been posted, I dont want to wade into this too much as it seems to be an emotive issue for some of us...........

However I will say that if this were to happen I think it would be good for both clubs in the city, as well as Alder Hay Hospital amd people who live and work in the districts mentioned.

Lets just wait and see if it happens

You hit it on the head. The city benefits, all of it. The clubs are guaranteed success.

 

[edge]

It needs electrification as it is diesel only. It is being electrified soon. What Merseytravel think and the Council think are now quite different. Merseytravel have only have a clue being a lot of train spotters. They nothing of economic and social needs.


In the past years four main projects have emerged that require rapid-transit rail and have changed rail priorities in Liverpool/Merseyside:

1. EFC stadium,
2. LFC stadium,
3. Liverpool Waters,
4. Wirral Waters.

Apart from "considering" the Bootle line for passengers for Stanley Park stadium (if it goes ahead), Merseytravel have made no provision for the above. They haven't got a clue, that is why the Council are moving in.

Southport has access to LIme St with a change at Moorfields. Or a train to Wigan from Southport. I know all about the passenger train on the Bootle line, it was in 2007 or 2008 and had Dept for Transport, LFC, Council etc on it. What this joy ride achieved I do not know. Thinking is now different, to get both clubs on a superior line. The Bootle line is NOT well connected unless there is large engineering works at Kirkdale turning the train back to Liverpool centre on the Northern Line.



The coalition is more lenient on transport spending now. If a solid case is put forward, using old lines which they like, it will get priority.



The eastern section of the Outer Loop is safeguarded, with long span bridges intact. The main expense, the land of line and the bridges is still there. No Compulsory Purchase Orders to rip though districts, as they are doing with the silly tram scheme, just lay the tracks and update the stations. That is why the council have homed in on this.

The Cherry lane station was costed at £2 to £3 million, which is buttons.



The electrification of around 50 miles of track from Liverpool-Manchester and the branches is not cheaper than bringing the few miles of the Outer Loop line into commission. What world are you in? The Outer Loop recommissioning would be buttons in comparison. The eastern section of the Outer Loop can extend into Sefton at Aintree if need be. People in Sefton would not pay higher rates for a rail line not in their borough - no one does anywhere.



That is generally the case. EFC are wanting to move. Liverpool FC are hampered by a poor location with a small station, when built, at Cherry Lane, which is on a poorly connected line, and a planned stadium that is too small - they saw what Arsenal did, with 98% occupancy, who want to extend to 70,000.



The economic and social impact of rapid-transit rail is something which is beyond the average rail worker.

Many stations are near intact, with platforms, on the Eastern section of the Outer Loop Line

Merseytravel f***ed up when they planned ill-conceived trams when the city has a metro that is easily extended. They still want to get this silly idea on-line after HM Gvmt cancelled the silly scheme, still spending millions on CPOs etc. The Det for Transport are not so dumb. Trams are "the Emperors new clothes", they are just ridiculously expensive buses. The novelty of using trams would soon wear off as people became aware that they are just glorified buses, that get stuck in traffic jams. HMG is now cold on trams but silly Neal Scales of Merseytravel can't see this. The disastrous £500million, and rising by the hour, Edinburgh tram scheme only replaces the Number 22 bus, see the last 10 minutes of the TV programme below From position 49.50:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010jqxd/The_Big_Debate_The_Economy/

Liverpool City Council have to step in to act as the driver to get the two clubs together onto existing safeguarded rapid-transit lines to get some sense into the situation of transport provision for the two clubs and get some rapid-transit rail in east of the city. That is what the Council are doing. I never made it up.

forgive a humble average rail worker , but lets get a few points sorted out,mersytravel , the board of directors is made up of representatives of the local councils who ALL fund it, you just cant cherry pick and say well sod you were not paying for its not in are area,along with the government, they all set the agenda for the future transport, yes those very same train spotters that Liverpool council is calling a bunch of idiots, yes there fellow Liverpool Councillors.and there going to ignore there own published future transport plan.
Your thoughts that the edge hill hub has been discarded are at odds with the fact that there are currently five bodies working together to make this a reality.
The clubs haven't got any money to move anywhere,the council haven't got any money to fund it central government, hasn't said a word about it , and network rail are hardly going to go along with it as merseytravel has been on a number of times to the government to make the system self contained they would own track stations signal and upkeep, hardly going to get network rail on board with that one, spend millions then we take it off you ,yes that's a good plan.
The cherry lane station will have to be build if Liverpool increase there ground capacity as they said they would recently, due to the planning laws in place for crowd displacement after the game, yes those very same ones that did for evertons kirkby project.
As for the costs of getting the loop up and running for next to nothing on a route that hasn't been used for thirty years is a joke,look at the spur towards Liverpool airport using the line at the jaguar /former fords site it needed two miles of track adding to reach the airport, it was knocked back due to costs,and you think they will fork out for a complete new line for the loop?
a little tip for posting on got drop the arrogant stance people might engage with you a bit better.
oh this average rail worker , was a transport manager ,road, berth manager docks, part owned/worked for a shipping agency, and was employed by Manchester airport, so that's road,rail, air and sea transport that i haven't a clue about.

 

[Matt Damon]

The line to bootle and southport to edge hill it is aready in use for freight and only needs stations not everything else, and its in merseytravels plans i havnt made it up, the thinking behind it is to give southport and other merseyrail stations access to the mainline using edge hill as a hub, as the line between there and manchester us being upgraded ,the disused tunnel towards chinatown and on to just past brunswick station, was looked at at the same time it in good nick despite flooding in parts.
As i siad the council, merseytravel ect have aready run a passenger train down it and had engineers survey it, i have talked to them while they were doing it, i wish they would open the loop but its not going to happen any time soon, there is a wish list setting out more stations but the loop isnt on it there are stations for around county rd, leeds st, litherland and others around merseyside. merseytravel arnt investing in new projects as they have had millions cut off there future works bujet and even some smaller projects arnt getting done.
As for expence there is no inferstucture in place tracks,power,water, signals,stations fences, all public access would have to be blocked to the line.the bridges have had no maintenace for train traffic for years so may or may not be fit for purpose,
The cherry lane station alone was costed at 1.5 million and thats on an existing line, the entire line would have to be redone from scratch and then encompassed into the existing rail network, the cost of the the edge hill manchester upgrade is over a hundred and sixty odd million thats just upgrading the track not new work to the track signals fences ect they are already in place ,the loop would be many times that,and the goverment, network rail, or you through your rates to fund mersytravel arnt going to find that sort of cash, and do you think people in wirral ,sefton, lancs are going to pay higher rates for it to get done, the all contribute to merseytravel?
For the football clubs to benifit they would have to move and we have seen what trouble this can bring its a none starter, a good idea in an ideal world , but its not going to happen . like i siad i wish it would, i have worked in the rail industry for twenty odd years and have never seen things as tight as they are everthing is getting sqeezed for profits for shareholders not running a better rail. ps the line at halewood now leads onto an estate, a main rd or a dirt track onto halewood station platform.

as an example of what you are up agianst,knotty ash former train station and loop line current picture, west derby ect are pretty much the same it would be a hugh job.

The MP for Southport was involved in the debate on this in Westminster hall on Wednesday 27th April.


http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2011/april/westminster-hall-debates-27-april-2011/

It was on BBC Parliament earlier today - Video links attached


14.30 -16.00 – Railway Expansion

John Pugh, Liberal Democrat MP for Southport, moved a debate on expansion of the railways which received an answer from Theresa Villiers, Minister of State, Department of Transport.

Video and Audio: Railway expansion
Commons Hansard: Railway expansion
Topics: Railways

Edit. Interestingly enough several local / central government members (Sefton, Southport and so on were all involved in it see the transcript (second link) )

 

[sirblue57]

Look Kenwright is a legend who saved our club.

Seen.

please god, say your kidding.

 

[BlackToffee]

dam it iv been outted , what will i tell my kids?

Hi Edge,

Are you able to clarify what the role of the Council is in this whole issue. Inner City seems quite incapable of responding to a simple question. I have to say that your intervention has made this a much more interesting issue. Thank God we have some train anoraks amongst our supporters.

 

[edge]

Hi Edge,

Are you able to clarify what the role of the Council is in this whole issue. Inner City seems quite incapable of responding to a simple question. I have to say that your intervention has made this a much more interesting issue. Thank God we have some train anoraks amongst our supporters.

Its position is it wishes it could be done, but has neither the funds or the backing of the other councils/goverment that constitute merseytravel , they are committed through the merseyrail franchise to fund along with the other councils for at least the next 13 years the current merseyrail setup and any extension of its franchise area would have to go to government to allow
They through merseytravel own none of the stations land ect they belong to network rail, the trains are leased, and there is a national shortage of rolling stock ,so begs the question were do they get the trains from even if they could afford to buy them, dont forget its a closed network so existing trains cant run on the loop from outside, and merseyrail currently runs a third less train fleet than under British rail so unless there hiding a few under the carpet somewhere don't be looking there for rolling stock.
In short the council would like it to happen, but have neither the funds or a business plan to say it can be self financing { that would be a miracle} so are basically saying just before the local elections we would love to give you this,its not are land we haven't got any money,no trains, no tracks, no stations, no fences, no signals no infrastructure power water ect,,we have some bridges and tunnels that havnt been used for 30 odd years and may or may not meet current specifications but if the government puts its hand in its pocket in the current world climate we just might get it, be easy couple of navvies with spades picks a few stakes and a bit of track and were away like a giant hornby train set track down click next one, be easy oh and by the way take no notice to those other Councillors on merseytravel there all trainspotters, and only run ferries, buses,tunnels as side to there hobby, i mean it was only you lot that voted them in ,what do you know,were the transport experts we used to run the buses before deregulation so beat that train spotters.oh and by the way while were at it we will find everton and liverpool a new ground right by it as well.
ps i am out of here before i get called an anorak again, and he does have a bit of a point about some of merseytravels mad ideas

 

[edge]

The MP for Southport was involved in the debate on this in Westminster hall on Wednesday 27th April.


http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2011/april/westminster-hall-debates-27-april-2011/

It was on BBC Parliament earlier today - Video links attached


14.30 -16.00 – Railway Expansion

John Pugh, Liberal Democrat MP for Southport, moved a debate on expansion of the railways which received an answer from Theresa Villiers, Minister of State, Department of Transport.

Video and Audio: Railway expansion
Commons Hansard: Railway expansion
Topics: Railways

Edit. Interestingly enough several local / central government members (Sefton, Southport and so on were all involved in it see the transcript (second link) )

thanks for the links

 

[BlackToffee]

Its position is it wishes it could be done, but has neither the funds or the backing of the other councils/goverment that constitute merseytravel , they are committed through the merseyrail franchise to fund along with the other councils for at least the next 13 years the current merseyrail setup and any extension of its franchise area would have to go to government to allow
They through merseytravel own none of the stations land ect they belong to network rail, the trains are leased, and there is a national shortage of rolling stock ,so begs the question were do they get the trains from even if they could afford to buy them, dont forget its a closed network so existing trains cant run on the loop from outside, and merseyrail currently runs a third less train fleet than under British rail so unless there hiding a few under the carpet somewhere don't be looking there for rolling stock.
In short the council would like it to happen, but have neither the funds or a business plan to say it can be self financing { that would be a miracle} so are basically saying just before the local elections we would love to give you this,its not are land we haven't got any money,no trains, no tracks, no stations, no fences, no signals no infrastructure power water ect,,we have some bridges and tunnels that havnt been used for 30 odd years and may or may not meet current specifications but if the government puts its hand in its pocket in the current world climate we just might get it, be easy couple of navvies with spades picks a few stakes and a bit of track and were away like a giant hornby train set track down click next one, be easy oh and by the way take no notice to those other Councillors on merseytravel there all trainspotters, and only run ferries, buses,tunnels as side to there hobby, i mean it was only you lot that voted them in ,what do you know,were the transport experts we used to run the buses before deregulation so beat that train spotters.oh and by the way while were at it we will find everton and liverpool a new ground right by it as well.
ps i am out of here before i get called an anorak again, and he does have a bit of a point about some of merseytravels mad ideas

I thank you sir. And I apologise for calling you an anorak. Won't make that mistake again.

PS Inner City, that is the way you answer a question. Take very careful note.

 

[Inner-city]

forgive a humble average rail worker , but lets get a few points sorted out,mersytravel , the board of directors is made up of representatives of the local councils who ALL fund it, you just cant cherry pick and say well sod you were not paying for its not in are area,along with the government, they all set the agenda for the future transport, yes those very same train spotters that Liverpool council is calling a bunch of idiots, yes there fellow Liverpool Councillors.and there going to ignore there own published future transport plan.

Merseytravel makes the decisions about transport in all of Merseyside, and have failed big time. Sweet FA has happened.

Your thoughts that the edge hill hub has been discarded are at odds with the fact that there are currently five bodies working together to make this a reality.

I never said it was discarded. To make Edge Hill work, the Edge Hill Spur project, abandoned in the 1970s and included the use of the 1829 Wapping Tunnel, would need to be completed.

The clubs haven't got any money to move anywhere,the council haven't got any money to fund it central government, hasn't said a word about it

Your knowledge of fiance is lacking. Read back on the thread.

and network rail are hardly going to go along with it as merseytravel has been on a number of times to the government to make the system self contained they would own track stations signal and upkeep,

Merseyrail IS self-contained.

The cherry lane station will have to be build if Liverpool increase there ground capacity as they said they would recently, due to the planning laws in place for crowd displacement after the game, yes those very same ones that did for evertons kirkby project.

A large throughput station cannot be built at Cherry Lane. The line is also limited in changes and usage.

As for the costs of getting the loop up and running for next to nothing on a route that hasn't been used for thirty years is a joke,

The line is there complete with tunnels and bridges - you have been told this. The Council know this and are wanting the line opened.

look at the spur towards Liverpool airport using the line at the jaguar /former fords site it needed two miles of track adding to reach the airport, it was knocked back due to costs,

Because Peel, who own the airport, would be the biggest benefactors and they would not folk out much at all. Public money would line the pockets of a private company.

a little tip for posting on got drop the arrogant stance people might engage with you a bit better.

A little hint. Stick to FACTS and read and understand what has been posted. And learn to write properly.

oh this average rail worker , was a transport manager ,road, berth manager docks, part owned/worked for a shipping agency, and was employed by Manchester airport, so that's road,rail, air and sea transport that i haven't a clue about.

.....and you still can't write. Managers have to objective. I assume you had a low level managers job, more supervision, with little education to back you up. But keep trying. Keep it up.

 

[Inner-city]

PS Inner City, that is the way you answer a question. Take very careful note.

If I answered a question like that I would go back to school. He say he is a manager. If he worked for me he wouldn't last long.

 

[Inner-city]

Hi Edge,

Are you able to clarify what the role of the Council is in this whole issue.

I posted the link from the Council. Read it.

 

[Inner-city]

Its position is it wishes it could be done, but has neither the funds or the backing of the other councils/goverment that constitute merseytravel ,

You knowledge of financials is zero. The Council are getting all parties together NOW. Backing from others is not the case as they have not moved significantly.

They through merseytravel own none of the stations land ect they belong to network rail, the trains are leased, and there is a national shortage of rolling stock ,so begs the question were do they get the trains from even if they could afford to buy them,

Merseytravel have just put open to tender offers to supply dedicated Merseyrail specific rolling stock fro all European makers. The current trains are due for replacement.

The Council is planning AHEAD, as they do. To get things moving when the CC recedes.

< snip misinformed made up babble >