Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

[Neiler]

For me, it's akin to requiring a surgeon to wash their hands and wear a mask and gloves when undergoing a surgical procedure. It's part of the role - it's done to protect the patient. If you aren't prepared to do it, then you wave goodbye to the choice of being a surgeon.

Likewise, if you're working with people who are by definition varying degrees of sick, then the job requirement should include taking measures that limit risk to those people.

If they don't want the vaccine, fine - all it means is you don't want your job. They have the right to choose - go and work in McDonald's or whatever instead. I have absolutely zero sympathy for them.

Your last sentence is a bit pie in the sky mate. There is a reason this is planned for April, the Government and wider society would be naive to think there won’t be a four fold impact here, no body knows the ethics around better then health care professionals: 1) There is a risk people will resign and leave service until the Pandemic is over, it’s not very cushy number at the moment any way, it’s a very valid choice if you just don’t want the vaccine. 2) This will be challenged legally I can tell you a vaccine mandate could be challenged under several human rights convention and that trumps policy. 3) The threat of industrial action, could you imagine a strike in the middle of this. 4) I can tell you its an employees market out there for health care professionals at the moment, there is far more need than there are people. best of luck trying to recruit people, while everyone flipping burgers in MCds. Who wants to work in a service were you don’t have a right to bodily consent, turn you right of the NHS.

The reason the Goverment are doing this in April is they want the very people they are going to strip rights from, to get through the awful winter months and then nail them.

 

[MikeH72]

So they will be extinct soon. We don't need to force them into anything.

Extinct or immune, yeah. I’ve still got a fairly high antibody count 12 months on from having covid.

 

[Tubey]

Your last sentence is a bit pie in the sky mate. There is a reason this is planned for April, the Government and wider society would be naive to think there won’t be a four fold impact here, no body knows the ethics around better then health care professionals: 1) There is a risk people will resign and leave service until the Pandemic is over, it’s not very cushy number at the moment any way, it’s a very valid choice if you just don’t want the vaccine. 2) This will be challenged legally I can tell you a vaccine mandate could be challenged under several human rights convention and that trumps policy. 3) The threat of industrial action, could you imagine a strike in the middle of this. 4) I can tell you its an employees market out there for health care professionals at the moment, there is far more need than there are people. best of luck trying to recruit people, while everyone flipping burgers in MCds. Who wants to work in a service were you don’t have a right to bodily consent, turn you right of the NHS.

The reason the Goverment are doing this in April is they want the very people they are going to strip rights from, to get through the awful winter months and then nail them.

Good luck with that. Already massive precedent for vaccine mandates with things like travel in relation to International Health Regulations.

A job, like travel, is a choice. To play for Everton, you have to wear an Everton kit - it's not against human rights to have a job requirement. You aren't being forced to have the vaccine; you are being given the choice.

As for your other points, they're superfluous to the issue being discussed. If there's a job crisis because of a vaccine requirement, so be it - fact remains it's a requirement and needs doing, similar to how a shortage of doctors doesn't result in letting anyone become a doctor to fill the gap. Because the job has requirements.

 

[Ghost Rider]

The other side to making it mandatory to be vaccinated in particular roles.

Say someone does get vaccinated against their will so to speak , to keep their job. Then get serious side effects and then lose their job because of it? Or worse still die from the side effects?

Is it still right to make them have the vaccine? Can it still be justified that an individual chose not to have it, was made to by their employer and then had significant side effects that would render them unable to work in the future?

The theoretical protecting the 'patient' is based on said unvaccinated person having covid to begin with. They aren't forced to have the flu jab though, which is the same scenario.

So say an unvaccinated person wears full PPE , doesn't mix with others , travels from home to work only. Should they still be vaccinated by following all measures to not catch covid?

 

[grandjoeblue]

Germany likely to follow Austria with Mandatory vaccinations.

I think many countries will follow in the next few weeks. I don't think vaccines should be mandatory for children under 11 but I can sort of see the argument for adults.

 

[Neiler]

Good luck with that. Already massive precedent for vaccine mandates with things like travel in relation to International Health Regulations.

A job, like travel, is a choice. To play for Everton, you have to wear an Everton kit - it's not against human rights to have a job requirement. You aren't being forced to have the vaccine; you are being given the choice.

As for your other points, they're superfluous to the issue being discussed. If there's a job crisis because of a vaccine requirement, so be it - fact remains it's a requirement and needs doing, similar to how a shortage of doctors doesn't result in letting anyone become a doctor to fill the gap. Because the job has requirements.

Comparing vaccine mandates to travel restrictions is just Silly, i don't think people appreciate the issue ,its about agency, bodily integrity and informed consent. That has nothing to do with travel ffs. None of the professions you mention involve loosing any of those fundamental human rights.

The other points arise are very apt, i can only speak from having lived experience in the area and working around the issues i mention, that the reality on the ground.

You also aren't in pocession of an understanding of medical ethics nor human rights. The fact you and i think its a good or bad idea is just opinion and irrelevant really.

 

[Tubey]

Comparing vaccine mandates to travel restrictions is just Silly, i don't think people appreciate the issue ,its about agency, bodily integrity and informed consent. That has nothing to do with travel ffs. None of the professions you mention involve loosing any of those fundamental human rights.

The other points arise are very apt, i can only speak from having lived experience in the area and working around the issues i mention, that the reality on the ground.

You also aren't in pocession of an understanding of medical ethics nor human rights. This is from the NHS website itself in regard to its approach to informed consent. It references the point i raise ethically and human rights legislation. The fact you and i think its a good or bad idea is just opinion and irrelevant really.

Consent to treatment

Find out what consent is, how it can be given, when it's needed, as well as situations when it's not needed.

www.nhs.uk

You keep talking about human rights, but I don't think you understand how they work (despite ironically you saying I don't!)

You don't have the human right to be a doctor, so you aren't having your human rights infringed.

I wouldn't support a blanket vaccine mandate on a population. But on an occupation? Absolutely no problem with it. It already happens; here's one example from a quick Google search.

 

[efcfanwirral]

I think when (not if) the vaccine is made mandatory the issue of boosters needs to be addressed then, not a lie that it won't apply to boosters to get support for the policy then "the science changed" a couple of months later

 

[Neiler]

You keep talking about human rights, but I don't think you understand how they work (despite ironically you saying I don't!)

You don't have the human right to be a doctor, so you aren't having your human rights infringed.

I wouldn't support a blanket vaccine mandate on a population. But on an occupation? Absolutely no problem with it. It already happens; here's one example from a quick Google search.

View attachment 146388

Its not about being a Doctor, Doctors are human and every citizen has a right to fundamental human rights - that the point of human rights, despite demarcation for any reason.

Under Human rights legislation, which trumps all national policy and legislation:

For consent to be valid, it must comply with three requirements:

• It must be voluntary, meaning that the decision must be made by the individual themselves, without any influence or pressure from medical staff, family or friends;
• It must be informed, meaning that the individual must have been given all of the information they need in order to make their decision; and
• The person making the decision must have capacity, meaning that they must be capable of understanding and using the information provided to them to make a decision.

That before looking at GDPR legislation, right to privacy and distinguishing on the basis of medical background and the right to make a informed bad decision.

Fertile ground for the legal profession.

 

[Tubey]

Its not about being a Doctor, Doctors are human and every citizen has a right to fundamental human rights - that the point of human rights, despite demarcation for any reason.

Under Human rights legislation, which trumps all national policy and legislation:

For consent to be valid, it must comply with three requirements:

• It must be voluntary, meaning that the decision must be made by the individual themselves, without any influence or pressure from medical staff, family or friends;
• It must be informed, meaning that the individual must have been given all of the information they need in order to make their decision; and
• The person making the decision must have capacity, meaning that they must be capable of understanding and using the information provided to them to make a decision.

That before looking at GDPR legislation, right to privacy and distinguishing on the basis of medical background.

Fertile ground for the legal profession.

Yes, but again, being a doctor isn't a human right, so any imposition on the role of doctor or any profession isn't breaching human rights.

That's what you aren't grasping here.

 

[Neiler]

Yes, but again, being a doctor isn't a human right, so any imposition on the role of doctor or any profession isn't breaching human rights.

That's what you aren't grasping here.

What you aren't grasping mate, is a Doctor is a human, Doctors dont loose fundamental human rights when they enter medical school or practice or work in area - you cant murder a Doctor because they are Doctor, therefore they have the same right to agency, bodily integrity and informed consent as you do. You cant gain and loose Human rights, they apply to everyone, unless you go down the appropriate safe guarding routes in terms of mantel health and capacity.

What you are suggesting is coercion and duress applied to give consent by materially depriving to elicit consent again breach of human rights.

 

[Tipp blue]

Scaring people looks to have become government policy here in Ireland...

CMO 'scaring the bejaysus out of people' and booster drive will avoid lockdown, say ministers

Health Minister Stephen Donnelly will bring a memorandum to Cabinet on Tuesday to provide for the subsidisation of antigen tests

www.irishexaminer.com

 

[JLW]

I think when (not if) the vaccine is made mandatory the issue of boosters needs to be addressed then, not a lie that it won't apply to boosters to get support for the policy then "the science changed" a couple of months later

100% the goal posts will be moved, like everything we've been fed during the past 18 months.
More and more people are seeing right through this BS now and its great to see.

Does anyone really think if we comply with the vaccinations, booster after booster, vaccine mandates for jobs, for kids, that after all this we will go back to the life we once knew pre-covid?

 

[Viennablue]

What you aren't grasping mate, is a Doctor is a human, Doctors dont loose fundamental human rights when they enter medical school or practice or work in area - you cant murder a Doctor because they are Doctor, therefore they have the same right to agency, bodily integrity and informed consent as you do. You cant gain and loose Human rights, they apply to everyone, unless you go down the appropriate safe guarding routes in terms of mantel health and capacity.

What you are suggesting is coercion and duress applied to give consent by materially depriving to elicit consent again breach of human rights.

You need to tighten up those loose human rights!

 

[Tipp blue]

100% the goal posts will be moved, like everything we've been fed during the past 18 months.
More and more people are seeing right through this BS now and its great to see.

Does anyone really think if we comply with the vaccinations, booster after booster, vaccine mandates for jobs, for kids, that after all this we will go back to the life we once knew pre-covid?

The only way out of this is to increase hospital capacity, and just deal with it like we do and always have done with other transmissible diseases. The vaccines are obviously a pile of s*** or we wouldn't be looking at further restrictions.