Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

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BlueToff said:
But this isn't the right way to look at it

Those are people's livelihoods and they have had no idea when they're going to be able to open again. Same with gigs and events, arenas and music venues on the verge of bankruptcy.

You can't just say 'oh well they aren't vital' because to a hell of a lot of people involved in those industries, they very much are, and they also happen to take a hell of a lot of pre-planning.

18 months in and with very low numbers of deaths, then there isn't really justification. So we have to learn to live with it and move forward. That's not me quoting Tory rhetoric because as I've said, I'd still have certain measures in place in the hope that they would mean that in the long term we get it all back for good sooner, but - and I know you aren't meaning to just disregard people - but these people will rightly feel like they have been disregarded when there really isn't much justification to keep doing so now.

Think of all the people who work in nightclubs, or at concert venues, or all the road crew for artists, all the tour managers and promoters. That's a very small example but that's 1000s and 1000s of people in the UK alone. And ultimately, 1000s of people losing work and their livelihoods can't really be justified at this stage with the hospital figures we're seeing, with the proviso of the vaccine roll out doing what it should be doing. That is obviously the most thing here.
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Nightclubs is a weird one. A lot of DJ's aren't particularly looking forward to going back to the club's and would rather play outdoor day parties but at the same time they want to support the club's.

I don't think I'm going to think about going to a club until I'm double vaccinated. Reckon I'll sack off gigs until then too.

I'd be fine with outdoor day things tho.
 
coollino said:
Nightclubs is a weird one. A lot of DJ's aren't particularly looking forward to going back to the club's and would rather play outdoor day parties but at the same time they want to support the club's.

I don't think I'm going to think about going to a club until I'm double vaccinated. Reckon I'll sack off gigs until then too.

I'd be fine with outdoor day things tho.
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I don't go to clubs, hate them. But my general point was it's not just about people having a good time. End of the day it's people's livelihoods and they also employ a hell of a lot of people especially in the cities with students etc. Plus, if we do then focus on the 'having a life' side of things, I'm sure loads of people have met wives, husbands, partners, etc on nights out. Speaking from personal experience, having to do it all on Hinge on Tinder can get crap (even though I've met the person I'm seeing atm that way). So I just don't think this far into it we can still be saying what we were at the start about certain sectors not being vital - everything is vital in its own way to somebody.

Gig wise – I'm not bothered, I'd go back instantly cause I miss them so much. But, the only gig I had booked for August (which was outdoors) has been cancelled as the band is an Aussie band who can't get over due to the Aussie rules. So by the time I hopefully get to go and see a gig, it'll be autumn anyway and I'd be double dosed and comfortable with it (from my safety but also others).

The only issue with the events is that, naturally, in summer most gigs/events are outdoors anyway, so it's not until the autumn months that they move indoors and that is going to coincide with the changing season and flu season etc.

So I suppose this is why there's the talk of the vaccine/covid pass things coming in then, specifically for hospitality and entertainment, and by then the initial vaccine roll out will be complete in adults and we'll probably be into boosters.
 
BlueToff said:
But this isn't the right way to look at it

Those are people's livelihoods and they have had no idea when they're going to be able to open again. Same with gigs and events, arenas and music venues on the verge of bankruptcy.

You can't just say 'oh well they aren't vital' because to a hell of a lot of people involved in those industries, they very much are, and they also happen to take a hell of a lot of pre-planning.

18 months in and with very low numbers of deaths, then there isn't really justification. So we have to learn to live with it and move forward. That's not me quoting Tory rhetoric because as I've said, I'd still have certain measures in place in the hope that they would mean that in the long term we get it all back for good sooner, but - and I know you aren't meaning to just disregard people - but these people will rightly feel like they have been disregarded when there really isn't much justification to keep doing so now.

Think of all the people who work in nightclubs, or at concert venues, or all the road crew for artists, all the tour managers and promoters. That's a very small example but that's 1000s and 1000s of people in the UK alone. And ultimately, 1000s of people losing work and their livelihoods can't really be justified at this stage with the hospital figures we're seeing, with the proviso of the vaccine roll out doing what it should be doing. That is obviously the most thing here.
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Which is why I say balance. There is of course economic suffering, for those who rely on groups and people congregating. I wouldn’t dismiss that. That again doesn’t take away from the fact that people congregating is very dangerous. I never take an all or nothing approach to anything, I think their needs to be the right balance and I think that needs to be evidenced led, but priority needs to be public health. I think presently we have opened up enough, maybe to much, even, I don’t think anyone can deny we’re in a wave and at risk, vaccines or no.

Im not closed minded on creative thinking, for example to have a night out in Denmark you have to fund and take an antigen test before admittance anywhere every day, bars, clubs, stadiums gigs, once taken and results come back, you are sent a QR code if all good. You do the same thing the next day. Things like that are what I mean by balance, they aren’t impossible and already happening. Whether the U.K. opens in the 19th or not, it’s going about it the wrong way, very little mitigation, walking head long into a wave and risk, with none of the numerous migration measures in place. People talk about learning to live it, based on current public health policy - all it shows is little has been learned from living with it, no mitigation measures- like what I mention above, optional face coverings, no social distancing, walking straight into into a wave of a surge, they’ve learned nothing from living with this. It’s bananas mate. They have accepted to let this rip through your country.

I agree with you in the main, claw back as many personal freedoms as we can, but they have to be mitigated, just getting back to normal, isn’t learning how to deal with this, it’s just denial and a lack of initiative, resources and clever thinking toward a viable alternative, because I think we can both acknowledge there are risks.
 
Deckard2049 said:
The new scientist released an article on long Covid, it’s behind a paywall.

This is the table they put out of symptoms reported :


This article also highlights why this issue is really not clear cut:

www.nature.com

Causation or confounding: why controls are critical for characterizing long COVID - Nature Medicine

www.nature.com www.nature.com

I am accepting of the fact some of these may be quite debilitating. But long Covid as a condition really needs to start being categorised a lot more (hard I know as we’re not even two years into this), as some of these symptoms are nowhere close to things like permanent lung damage which are seriously going to mess up your life. Give the state of the the world since the start of 2020, can we really rule out a psychological element to some of these symptoms? I’m happy to be called an ignoramus but are we seriously saying fatigue and impaired concentration are definitively caused just by Covid?

www.bbc.co.uk

Long Covid fatigue 'reduced with exercise programme'

Researchers say a six-week exercise programme helped patients make "significant" improvement.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Based on that study, we’ve reached the equivalent of what my grandmother would say; “get outside and get some fresh air and exercise and you’ll feel better”. Flippant perhaps, but can we really say that for even a few people it wouldn’t help? Posters in here bring up neighbours, colleagues, friends and family who have clearly suffered mentally the last year and a half. Can that train of thought not be extended to some of those suffering long Covid symptoms?

Like I said, my original disagreement is on the issue of how it’s always night clubs that get brought up. We’ve been unlocking in stages for months now- clubs are right at the end. I don’t agree that masks should be going, but I just think this stressing out over clubs is bizarre- and it follows on from the survey that was linked here the other day where about 1/5 people polled said they’d like them to be closed forever. It’s just weird.

And a disclaimer: I do not own or work in a night club. But I am a “young person” and I know what a majority of young people are thinking in regards to worrying about long Covid and getting back to a bit more normality.
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Fully agree that more data would be welcome and it is likely a complex issue but as that nature article highlights

“It is increasingly apparent that the long-term impact of this pandemic will be considerable and will substantially affect quality of life. Current best-guess estimates for long COVID (defined as self-reported persistence of any symptoms for 12 weeks or more after COVID-19) in population-based UK studies range from 2.2% (ref. 8) to 13.7% (ref. 4), “ which is why I disagreed with the minuscule risk bit.

Long Covid seems to be reported more by women and there is a extensive history of gender bias where genuine medical symptoms are dismissed.
www.bbc.com

'Everybody was telling me there was nothing wrong'

Women are more likely to wait longer for a health diagnosis and to be told it’s ‘all in their heads’. That can be lethal: diagnostic errors cause 40,000-80,000 deaths in the US alone.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
Brain tumours are only one example. A 2015 study revealed a longer lag time from the onset of symptoms to diagnosis in female patients in six out of 11 types of cancer. It isn’t that women wait longer to seek medical attention – the delay occurs after they’ve first visited their GP. A 2013 study concluded that more than twice as many women as men had to make more than three visits to a primary care doctor in the UK before getting referred to a specialist for suspected bladder cancer. So did nearly twice as many with renal cancer.
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and so I think some caution is warranted about suggesting a psychological element although obviously wouldn’t dismiss it as a possibility either.

I did think that survey result was stupid/weird however nightclubs do seem to be perfect spots for a super-spreader event given the younger less vaccinated cliental and indoor mixing (S Korea had a bad outbreak early on where over 200 cases were linked to one club) which I why I’d prefer them to have some vaccine/testing requirement, especially in the initial stages with the current spread rate. It also might encourage uptake of vaccines in under 30s which have been dropping off after an encouraging start - that after all is the key to us all getting back to normal.
www.theguardian.com

Vaccine uptake in England almost halves ‘amid mixed messages’

Demand from under-30s slows, with Manchester and Sheffield health chiefs noting ‘false sense of security’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
This thread has done weird things to members. For some reason, one obsessed and desperate poster who I shall not name, has decided to tag me into five different posts in the past week. Obviously I’ve not read any of them because I’ve had better things to do, such as my morning poo, but I do feel sorry for them and hope that the member concerned can get the help he needs, i.e. get out and about.
 
Paris said:
This thread has done weird things to members. For some reason, one obsessed and desperate poster who I shall not name, has decided to tag me into five different posts in the past week. Obviously I’ve not read any of them because I’ve had better things to do, such as my morning poo, but I do feel sorry for them and hope that the member concerned can get the help he needs, i.e. get out and about.
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Always out and about. Been out for a 10k hike this morning.

Now, you never got round to explaining which Scientists are for hire??

Also, what was it you said about the homeless that time?
 
peteblue said:
Just tell the kids they can’t go into a pub or a club without a double jab…..they’ll be queuing up…..
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That's what they're going to do. It basically creates a two-tier society.

But I don't think the vaccine roll out in younger people hasn't been as much of an issue as is claimed. The general age of anti-vaxers or people out protesting on the streets aren't those in their 20s.
 
NilSatisOptimum said:
You mean better than 12 week vaccine intervals...Tory Knob head!

news.sky.com

People will be 'expected' to wear masks in enclosed spaces after 19 July, minister says

Nadhim Zahawi suggested the government will issue guidance on Monday stating that people are still "expected" to wear face masks in indoor, enclosed spaces - despite the legal requirement to wear one ending at stage four of the government's roadmap out of lockdown.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
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The 12 week interval has been absolutely fine (for both AZ and Pfizer, even though with Pfizer it was a gamble) and that has allowed us to get more people vaccinated.

The Dutch have only just in the last few weeks started dosing their under 30s.

There's 18 million people in the Netherlands, and 70m in the UK, yet the UK hit the under 30s at the same time as the Netherlands did.

Not everything they do is bad and in this case the vaccine roll out has gone really, really well. They're now changing it down to 8 weeks as a standard in the hope to get everyone done by September. We no longer have to worry about any supply issues – there's vaccines for everyone to go around and then some – and they're into younger groups.

People insisted it wouldn't be possible to have everyone with at least a first dose by the end of July. The NHS and the vaccine roll out has surpassed that target and then some – not only will all over 18s have been offered a first dose by the 19th, but all over 40s will have been offered their second dose. That's not bad going.
 
An STD outbreak in Ireland.. so much for social distancing... they reckon there's loads going undiagnosed as STD clinics are operating at reduced levels due to Covid.. as long as its not covid it doesn't matter ... just reduce the opening hours.
www.breakingnews.ie

Health officials warn of national syphilis outbreak | BreakingNews

There are concerns that there may be 'a large reservoir' of undiagnosed cases
www.breakingnews.ie www.breakingnews.ie
 
BlueToff said:
That's what they're going to do. It basically creates a two-tier society.

But I don't think the vaccine roll out in younger people hasn't been as much of an issue as is claimed. The general age of anti-vaxers or people out protesting on the streets aren't those in their 20s.
Click to expand...

Of course there will be a two tier society, there already is, the vaccinated and those who are not. Even anti-vaxers may think twice if they are effectively locking themselves out of normality. Demand should be outstripping supply and not the other way around at this point….
 
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