Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

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I had a big argument with my partner on the evening of the 16 March, the day BoJo told everyone to stay at home, avoid non essential travel but didn't close down pubs/restaurants/shops.

We went for a walk and every pub we passed had loads of people in. I said we should be in full lockdown right now and this semi lockdown was going to kill people. She was of the opinion that people were fine to go for a drink and we shouldn't judge.

It was so obvious to me at the time and unfortunately I was completely right, with tens of thousands of deaths the result of BoJo acting too late.

This is why, for me, anyone acting like it is only clear in hindsight is a load of rubbish.

It was obvious, if you understood exponential growth and were willing to actually take the decision.
I agree that the Government should have gone into full lockdown on March 16th. However I say this with the benefit of hindsight, but also the reason I would have gone into lockdown then was the scenes coming out of Italy which were distressful to say the least. It was a view based on emotion rather than science or any high degree of knowledge of the situation in the UK.

The cabinet, at the time, were following the science based on the findings of SAGE, and the advice from the permanent government staff such as the CSO and CMO and their teams. The SAGE meeting minutes around that time confirm this. The meeting on 16th resolved that more social distancing needed to be introduced, but further research was required on expected hospital ICU utilisation and on effect of school closures. The estimates at that stage was that infection was doubling every 5/6 days. That evening was when Johnson announced the first round of measures which you refer to above.

There was a further SAGE meeting 2 days later. They were of the opinion that the existing measures were sufficient to sustain hospital ICU capacity provided they were being adhered to in sufficient numbers. They estimated the infection was still doubling every 5/7 days, but the measure that had already been introduced would bring that down .

As you know, the government gave instructions on Friday 20th March for all hospitality linked establishments to close, except for takeaways. Obviously more information had come to light between 18th and the 20th, and I very much suspect it was the news that the infection was now estimated to be doubling every 3/4 days.

The next SAGE meeting was held on 23 March. They had data on the effect of the existing measures and it showed that many people were complying. Public transport was down 80/90% and a smaller reduction in retail and hospitality outlets. Despite this, because of the new infection rate of 3/4 days, they concluded that the current measures would probably result in the ICU capacity being overwhelmed. Hence the introduction of full lockdown that evening.

So whilst I personally would have introduced full lockdown on 16th, I can fully understand why the government didn't. I don't agree with you saying that implementing full shutdown on that date would have saved tens of thousands of lives, because the science does not back that up. Data shows that the advice of the government was pretty much adhered to, and they actually imposed closure of many of the hospitality and leisure outlets 3 days before the actual lockdown. I know you gave an example of pubs being full, but equally I can give examples near me where the opposite is true. Me and the missus went for lunch in a popular local restaurant on the Wednesday of that week and apart from one guy having a drink at the bar, we were the only people in there. they said it was he same on the Tuesday, and hat on a normal nice day they could reasonably expect 40/50 diners. Also, I know I've seen a medical report that, using the peak new cases in hospitals as a base point, worked back to when the infection rate started to reduce substantially, and that was 16th March, not the 23rd March when full lockdown commenced. Annoyingly I can't find that report on the web now.

Had lockdown took place one week earlier on 9th March, I have absolutely no doubts that tens of thousands of lives could have been saved. Unfortunately at that time our science was telling us that we were 4-8 weeks behind Italy and clearly we weren't.
 
Update on what`s likely to happen in UK hotels, based on a booking I`ve just made for the 2nd week in July at a pub in the Lakes ( I know I`m a MURDERER )

Upon arrival guests will be subject to a temp check, that is recorded - a high temp and they will refuse admission.
Mandatory and frequent hand sanitising.
Guests from certain countries not allowed ( doesn`t state which )
Proof of ID maybe required if staff believe guests may come one of those countries.

Prior to arrival the rooms is deep cleaned and a UVC germicidal lamp is placed in the room for 30 mins - apparently kills all germs by UV light by oxidising them.
The room will not be entered again by a member of staff until the guest vacates.
The room key and all towels bedding are zapped by the same UV lamp treatment.

Pretty happy with that tbh and I`m very much looking forward to it.

You do know where they are going to shove the 9 inch thermometer don’t you.....
 
So did we the stats rise after the packed out beaches on the bank holiday?
I think it's impossible to tell for certain without test and trace, which of course wasn't available at the time. Infection levels are slowly coming down, but how do we know for certain that it may have come down quicker if not for these events. The answer is we don't.

As test and trace is rolled out this is the sort of thing we'll get more data on.
 
I don't really see why to be honest. Set the pub out into sections, you can still have tables for groups (bubbles and all that) but spread them out a bit and have table service rather than everyone going the bar (or a one way system).

Bogs would be a problem I guess.

It's not ideal but everyone needs to adapt somewhat for the time being.The biggest problem would be keeping people to adhere to the rules whilst the steadily get more and more drunk.

I've been the pub the last 2 nights under pretty much what you describe. Not bad at all.
 
I agree that the Government should have gone into full lockdown on March 16th. However I say this with the benefit of hindsight, but also the reason I would have gone into lockdown then was the scenes coming out of Italy which were distressful to say the least. It was a view based on emotion rather than science or any high degree of knowledge of the situation in the UK.

The cabinet, at the time, were following the science based on the findings of SAGE, and the advice from the permanent government staff such as the CSO and CMO and their teams. The SAGE meeting minutes around that time confirm this. The meeting on 16th resolved that more social distancing needed to be introduced, but further research was required on expected hospital ICU utilisation and on effect of school closures. The estimates at that stage was that infection was doubling every 5/6 days. That evening was when Johnson announced the first round of measures which you refer to above.

There was a further SAGE meeting 2 days later. They were of the opinion that the existing measures were sufficient to sustain hospital ICU capacity provided they were being adhered to in sufficient numbers. They estimated the infection was still doubling every 5/7 days, but the measure that had already been introduced would bring that down .

As you know, the government gave instructions on Friday 20th March for all hospitality linked establishments to close, except for takeaways. Obviously more information had come to light between 18th and the 20th, and I very much suspect it was the news that the infection was now estimated to be doubling every 3/4 days.

The next SAGE meeting was held on 23 March. They had data on the effect of the existing measures and it showed that many people were complying. Public transport was down 80/90% and a smaller reduction in retail and hospitality outlets. Despite this, because of the new infection rate of 3/4 days, they concluded that the current measures would probably result in the ICU capacity being overwhelmed. Hence the introduction of full lockdown that evening.

So whilst I personally would have introduced full lockdown on 16th, I can fully understand why the government didn't. I don't agree with you saying that implementing full shutdown on that date would have saved tens of thousands of lives, because the science does not back that up. Data shows that the advice of the government was pretty much adhered to, and they actually imposed closure of many of the hospitality and leisure outlets 3 days before the actual lockdown. I know you gave an example of pubs being full, but equally I can give examples near me where the opposite is true. Me and the missus went for lunch in a popular local restaurant on the Wednesday of that week and apart from one guy having a drink at the bar, we were the only people in there. they said it was he same on the Tuesday, and hat on a normal nice day they could reasonably expect 40/50 diners. Also, I know I've seen a medical report that, using the peak new cases in hospitals as a base point, worked back to when the infection rate started to reduce substantially, and that was 16th March, not the 23rd March when full lockdown commenced. Annoyingly I can't find that report on the web now.

Had lockdown took place one week earlier on 9th March, I have absolutely no doubts that tens of thousands of lives could have been saved. Unfortunately at that time our science was telling us that we were 4-8 weeks behind Italy and clearly we weren't.

Utter BS from start to finish.
 
This disaster is symptomatic of the tories looking for a short term buck rather than looking at the bigger picture. Not to mention the lives saved and cost of o the NHS, had we locked down earlier we would be out of it earlier, businesses wouldn't be losing out on huge amounts of summer trade.
Mate.

Like everybody else you are entitled to your opinion. But instead of making unsubstantiated statements, why don't you take the time out to read the minutes of all the SAGE meetings that took place between the start of this and early May. At that stage in the pandemic, the government were definitely following the science as the SAGE minutes will show. Now it's possible that the scientists were looking for a short term buck rather than looking at the bigger picture.
 
Many pubs make little profit as it is, 2 metre distancing makes it impossible for the majority to stay afloat.

I was reading the other day, a lot of pub owners were saying (before the announcement by the government) that with all the restriction likely to be put in place in regards to them opening, then they probably won't open up because it will actually cost them more in the long run.
 
I agree that the Government should have gone into full lockdown on March 16th. However I say this with the benefit of hindsight, but also the reason I would have gone into lockdown then was the scenes coming out of Italy which were distressful to say the least. It was a view based on emotion rather than science or any high degree of knowledge of the situation in the UK.

The cabinet, at the time, were following the science based on the findings of SAGE, and the advice from the permanent government staff such as the CSO and CMO and their teams. The SAGE meeting minutes around that time confirm this. The meeting on 16th resolved that more social distancing needed to be introduced, but further research was required on expected hospital ICU utilisation and on effect of school closures. The estimates at that stage was that infection was doubling every 5/6 days. That evening was when Johnson announced the first round of measures which you refer to above.

There was a further SAGE meeting 2 days later. They were of the opinion that the existing measures were sufficient to sustain hospital ICU capacity provided they were being adhered to in sufficient numbers. They estimated the infection was still doubling every 5/7 days, but the measure that had already been introduced would bring that down .

As you know, the government gave instructions on Friday 20th March for all hospitality linked establishments to close, except for takeaways. Obviously more information had come to light between 18th and the 20th, and I very much suspect it was the news that the infection was now estimated to be doubling every 3/4 days.

The next SAGE meeting was held on 23 March. They had data on the effect of the existing measures and it showed that many people were complying. Public transport was down 80/90% and a smaller reduction in retail and hospitality outlets. Despite this, because of the new infection rate of 3/4 days, they concluded that the current measures would probably result in the ICU capacity being overwhelmed. Hence the introduction of full lockdown that evening.

So whilst I personally would have introduced full lockdown on 16th, I can fully understand why the government didn't. I don't agree with you saying that implementing full shutdown on that date would have saved tens of thousands of lives, because the science does not back that up. Data shows that the advice of the government was pretty much adhered to, and they actually imposed closure of many of the hospitality and leisure outlets 3 days before the actual lockdown. I know you gave an example of pubs being full, but equally I can give examples near me where the opposite is true. Me and the missus went for lunch in a popular local restaurant on the Wednesday of that week and apart from one guy having a drink at the bar, we were the only people in there. they said it was he same on the Tuesday, and hat on a normal nice day they could reasonably expect 40/50 diners. Also, I know I've seen a medical report that, using the peak new cases in hospitals as a base point, worked back to when the infection rate started to reduce substantially, and that was 16th March, not the 23rd March when full lockdown commenced. Annoyingly I can't find that report on the web now.

Had lockdown took place one week earlier on 9th March, I have absolutely no doubts that tens of thousands of lives could have been saved. Unfortunately at that time our science was telling us that we were 4-8 weeks behind Italy and clearly we weren't.

On March 11, I quoted the WHO telling Governments to take urgent and aggressive action.

On March 13 I made a couple of posts about the impact of exponential growth.

The information was there. The Government made a mistake that has directly led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people. It is up to each individual what they do with that going forwards. I personally wont be voting for this Government.

I live in a busy part of London, the epicentre of the outbreak at the time, and those full pubs in the week after March 16 were disastrous.
 
We should have shut down on or before the horrific press conference on 12 March where we announced stopping of testing and it became clear we were going for herd immunity.

This is not hindsight - plenty said it at the time. If we had, deaths would have been of the order of 10,000- 20,000. Instead we are at 65,000 (based on excess deaths).

The timing of the shutdown was the biggest single factor in success and failure. We shut down too late.
 
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