Current Affairs Climate Change Demonstrations.....

[Jebus_lives]

what legislation has changed because of the Marches ?......

The example I quoted might be a good place to start: March on Washington - American Civil rights Act and voting rights Act.

Conversely Pete, whatever changed by people not protesting and marching?

 

[Ihaters]

I work for the Council in Devon (highways though so not ITK on this) and they were out and about in decent numbers recently, but I couldn't help wondering what the main objective is. I don't think it's to make to country greener because it's pointless, we already spend loads of funds on that side of thing and centrally we are doing more than most, so I guess it's an effort to convince government to push the agenda to the global audience more?

I say this because, if the UK suddenly sank into the ocean, globally the carbon footprint would barely notice. On a personal level lowering my lightbulb output to reduce our 300m+ tons of National emissions

output ​

by a couple of grams is a pointless gesture when you have China pumping out ni on 10,000m tons.

I am all for changing the world, and it's hard to fault the protestors, their passion or their will to change things, but one thing I didn't like were how many of the young generation seemed to think that they are the only ones doing anything and the older generation did nothing to help, that we were leaving behind a mess instead of the reality of being given the keys to a whole cupboard of solutions from before their time... In fact they were at great pains to express it during their protests.

I like what they are doing, but it's not starting a movement, it's joining one that's being going on for decades. But go for it kids. Sadly it won't make any difference, Russia, America, China, India and Japan have Earth's demise all sown up on their own. At least you can legitimately say you did your bit as it implodes. Or just bomb China and give yourself a few decades more.

 

[Jebus_lives]

I work for the Council in Devon (highways though so not ITK on this) and they were out and about in decent numbers recently, but I couldn't help wondering what the main objective is. I don't think it's to make to country greener because it's pointless, we already spend loads of funds on that side of thing and centrally we are doing more than most, so I guess it's an effort to convince government to push the agenda to the global audience more?

I say this because, if the UK suddenly sank into the ocean, globally the carbon footprint would barely notice. On a personal level lowering my lightbulb output to reduce our 300m+ tons of National emissions
output
by a couple of grams is a pointless gesture when you have China pumping out ni on 10,000m tons.

I am all for changing the world, and it's hard to fault the protestors, their passion or their will to change things, but one thing I didn't like were how many of the young generation seemed to think that they are the only ones doing anything and the older generation did nothing to help, that we were leaving behind a mess instead of the reality of being given the keys to a whole cupboard of solutions from before their time... In fact they were at great pains to express it during their protests.

I like what they are doing, but it's not starting a movement, it's joining one that's being going on for decades. But go for it kids. Sadly it won't make any difference, Russia, America, China, India and Japan have Earth's demise all sown up on their own. At least you can legitimately say you did your bit as it implodes. Or just bomb China and give yourself a few decades more.

It's persistent small targeted measures that have the biggest impact.

@peteblue will be along to put you straight I'm sure.

 

[Ihaters]

It's persistent small targeted measures that have the biggest impact.

@peteblue will be along to put you straight I'm sure.

I'm fairly sure a large bomb on China would have a bigger one

If the new gen continue to use and enhance the things created by their predecessors they have a chance to turn it aounrd, but like I say, if the UK had a year long power cut, and ran out of fossil fuels there would be barely anything noticeable in the global emissions for the year and that's what needs to change.

 

[Ihaters]

This conversation got me interested so I made this quite literally for no reason.

Microsoft Power BI

app.powerbi.com

from the first table here

Each Country's Share of CO2 Emissions

Which 20 countries emit the most carbon dioxide? You may be surprised.

www.ucsusa.org

Press Ctrl and click for more than one country
Button at the bottom changes between total output and by person
And the Everton gifs are reset buttons

 

[Number_25]

This conversation got me interested so I made this quite literally for no reason.

Microsoft Power BI

app.powerbi.com

from the first table here

Each Country's Share of CO2 Emissions

Which 20 countries emit the most carbon dioxide? You may be surprised.

www.ucsusa.org

Press Ctrl and click for more than one country
Button at the bottom changes between total output and by person
And the Everton gifs are reset buttons

China has a population of over a billion, us a measly 60m.

 

[orchard]

I work for the Council in Devon (highways though so not ITK on this) and they were out and about in decent numbers recently, but I couldn't help wondering what the main objective is. I don't think it's to make to country greener because it's pointless, we already spend loads of funds on that side of thing and centrally we are doing more than most, so I guess it's an effort to convince government to push the agenda to the global audience more?

I say this because, if the UK suddenly sank into the ocean, globally the carbon footprint would barely notice. On a personal level lowering my lightbulb output to reduce our 300m+ tons of National emissions

output ​

by a couple of grams is a pointless gesture when you have China pumping out ni on 10,000m tons.

I am all for changing the world, and it's hard to fault the protestors, their passion or their will to change things, but one thing I didn't like were how many of the young generation seemed to think that they are the only ones doing anything and the older generation did nothing to help, that we were leaving behind a mess instead of the reality of being given the keys to a whole cupboard of solutions from before their time... In fact they were at great pains to express it during their protests.

I like what they are doing, but it's not starting a movement, it's joining one that's being going on for decades. But go for it kids. Sadly it won't make any difference, Russia, America, China, India and Japan have Earth's demise all sown up on their own. At least you can legitimately say you did your bit as it implodes. Or just bomb China and give yourself a few decades more.

I think a lot of our (and the US') carbon emissions have been exported to China. Maybe you're looking at a simplified household economy, whereas a lot of consumer goods for our market are made in China.

 

[Ihaters]

I think a lot of our (and the US') carbon emissions have been exported to China. Maybe you're looking at a simplified household economy, whereas a lot of consumer goods for our market are made in China.

Yes they are and therein lies one of the big issues. China has horrific pollution but will the next gen give up some of it's favourite toys until it changes the way it does stuff?
Large 'made in China' and 'this country is killing the planet' type messages like those found on smoking packets until it changes from a predominantly coal based country? Toys will get more expensive, but that's the trade off that makes environmentalism so hard to pass on. Clean energy is expensive, will the next gen pick up the tab?

 

[tsubaki]

Yes they are and therein lies one of the big issues. China has horrific pollution but will the next gen give up some of it's favourite toys until it changes the way it does stuff?
Large 'made in China' and 'this country is killing the planet' type messages like those found on smoking packets until it changes from a predominantly coal based country? Toys will get more expensive, but that's the trade off that makes environmentalism so hard to pass on. Clean energy is expensive, will the next gen pick up the tab?

Clean energy isn't expensive. Clean energy to entirely replace what we currently use would be, but then again we waste an immense amount of energy now in a variety of ways.

 

[orchard]

Yes they are and therein lies one of the big issues. China has horrific pollution but will the next gen give up some of it's favourite toys until it changes the way it does stuff?
Large 'made in China' and 'this country is killing the planet' type messages like those found on smoking packets until it changes from a predominantly coal based country? Toys will get more expensive, but that's the trade off that makes environmentalism so hard to pass on. Clean energy is expensive, will the next gen pick up the tab?

Should it just be 'the next gen' that picks up the tab? I don't think so mate.

The trouble we have (imo), is exporting these things for the profit of some have had the triple edge of reducing quality(and increasing the consumer cycle frequency), reducing jobs and control here, and, quite importantly imo, artificially kept inflation figures a lot lower than they should have been, especially over the last forty years, where a typical worker's wages has flat-lined in real terms. De-couple the average worker from cheap imported short-term chod, or get them to buy Organic food and their consumer living standards will plummet drastically.

 

[Ihaters]

Clean energy isn't expensive. Clean energy to entirely replace what we currently use would be, but then again we waste an immense amount of energy now in a variety of ways.

This is true, I have finished this now: https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJr...iNjgtNDQzZi1iYjRiLTk5N2Y3N2ZkNWJmYiIsImMiOjh9

What should be added is the breakdown of energy suppliers, clean energy is actually pretty advanced in China... but their fossil fuel use is still fitting to their size and due to their size and until America pulls it's weigh too, further improving our individual or national footprint will never make a dent to the carnage is my point.

Of course the way we travel, the way we store energy both nationally and in the home and office and the way we use energy could be improved per person, but it won't help with the Saudi Arabia's of the world undoing everything we do. Not say we shouldn't still do it of course. Make the world solar power.

 

[abelard]

Clean energy is expensive, will the next gen pick up the tab?

One of the biggest misconceptions about the post-crash economy is that capital is scarce. This could hardly be more true. America alone has essentially invented (aka 'quantitative easing') about $4.5 trillion out of thin air. Add in Japan, China, the EU, and the UK, all of which have done likewise to varying degrees, and we're left with a global economy that is absolutely swimming in cash with no place to go.

The reason why the central banks did this was to stimulate the economy following the crash. The theory was that banks and government would take the money and invest it in productive ends, like rebuilding high streets, modernising infrastructure like inner-city transit or the trains, and especially, funding the transition to a non-carbon economy.

Instead, our economic elders in America and especially the EU and UK decided to deliberately contract the economy, at the height of the worst recession in eighty years. Rather than invest the QE money, and the Central Banks intended, they instead extracted funds from local councils, hospitals, schools, transit, the police - the works - in the EU's case to hoard pointless surpluses in Germany and the Nordic states, and in Britain's case to reduce taxes for corporations and wealthy donors. In doing so, they ignored the advice of just about every macroeconomist in the field, and created the conditions that enabled Brexit and Trump. Our politics may never recover from their error.

The combination of a) conjuring unprecedented piles of capital (slashing interest rates and effectively printing trillions) and b) contracting the public sector, has been an unrelenting disaster, with enormous piles of capital sloshing around, and no productive place to go. So we have staggering global asset bubbles in real estate (google 'Dar Es Salaam real estate bubble' if you want to know how out of control it has become), and in equities: Price-to-earning ratios have never been more distorted, and British and American corporations are sitting on enormous heaps of cash and no idea what to do with it, save buying back their own shares.

In other words, we could have dramatically improved inequality, transit, quality of life - and the environment. But we created WeWork instead.

All that needs to happen to fund renewable energy is to summon up the political will to take back the QE money from its hiding places in Ireland and Luxembourg and Delaware and Bermuda, and invest - reducing inequality and underemployment and reviving 'left-behind towns' in the process. There is overwhelming political support from everyday people for policies along these lines.

But unfortunately, our elites are fiscal zombies, their brains infected by an economic orthodoxy which ceased to be relevant at least 50 years ago. And even painfully modest reforms like restoring taxation to 2010 levels prompt incoherent shrieking about Venezuela.

The problem has never been financial; it has always been entirely political - hence the street demonstrations.

 

[Ihaters]

One of the biggest misconceptions about the post-crash economy is that capital is scarce. This could hardly be more true. America alone has essentially invented (aka 'quantitative easing') about $4.5 trillion out of thin air. Add in Japan, China, the EU, and the UK, all of which have done likewise to varying degrees, and we're left with a global economy that is absolutely swimming in cash with no place to go.

The reason why the central banks did this was to stimulate the economy following the crash. The theory was that banks and government would take the money and invest it in productive ends, like rebuilding high streets, modernising infrastructure like inner-city transit or the trains, and especially, funding the transition to a non-carbon economy.

Instead, our economic elders in America and especially the EU and UK decided to deliberately contract the economy, at the height of the worst recession in eighty years. Rather than invest the QE money, and the Central Banks intended, they instead extracted funds from local councils, hospitals, schools, transit, the police - the works - in the EU's case to hoard pointless surpluses in Germany and the Nordic states, and in Britain's case to reduce taxes for corporations and wealthy donors. In doing so, they ignored the advice of just about every macroeconomist in the field, and created the conditions that enabled Brexit and Trump. Our politics may never recover from their error.

The combination of a) conjuring unprecedented piles of capital (slashing interest rates and effectively printing trillions) and b) contracting the public sector, has been an unrelenting disaster, with enormous piles of capital sloshing around, and no productive place to go. So we have staggering global asset bubbles in real estate (google 'Dar Es Salaam real estate bubble' if you want to know how out of control it has become), and in equities: Price-to-earning ratios have never been more distorted, and British and American corporations are sitting on enormous heaps of cash and no idea what to do with it, save buying back their own shares.

In other words, we could have dramatically improved inequality, transit, quality of life - and the environment. But we created WeWork instead.

All that needs to happen to fund renewable energy is to summon up the political will to take back the QE money from its hiding places in Ireland and Luxembourg and Delaware and Bermuda, and invest - reducing inequality and underemployment and reviving 'left-behind towns' in the process. There is overwhelming political support from everyday people for policies along these lines.

But unfortunately, our elites are fiscal zombies, their brains infected by an economic orthodoxy which ceased to be relevant at least 50 years ago. And even painfully modest reforms like restoring taxation to 2010 levels prompt incoherent shrieking about Venezuela.

The problem has never been financial; it has always been entirely political - hence the street demonstrations.

I know little about this so bow to your wisdom on the matter. Maybe this is the crux of the protests? Seems like a sensible move to get this money (actually managed this time) to the countries with higher pollution levels in order to try to reduce the emissions.​

 

[peteblue]

I work for the Council in Devon (highways though so not ITK on this) and they were out and about in decent numbers recently, but I couldn't help wondering what the main objective is. I don't think it's to make to country greener because it's pointless, we already spend loads of funds on that side of thing and centrally we are doing more than most, so I guess it's an effort to convince government to push the agenda to the global audience more?

I say this because, if the UK suddenly sank into the ocean, globally the carbon footprint would barely notice. On a personal level lowering my lightbulb output to reduce our 300m+ tons of National emissions
output
by a couple of grams is a pointless gesture when you have China pumping out ni on 10,000m tons.

I am all for changing the world, and it's hard to fault the protestors, their passion or their will to change things, but one thing I didn't like were how many of the young generation seemed to think that they are the only ones doing anything and the older generation did nothing to help, that we were leaving behind a mess instead of the reality of being given the keys to a whole cupboard of solutions from before their time... In fact they were at great pains to express it during their protests.

I like what they are doing, but it's not starting a movement, it's joining one that's being going on for decades. But go for it kids. Sadly it won't make any difference, Russia, America, China, India and Japan have Earth's demise all sown up on their own. At least you can legitimately say you did your bit as it implodes. Or just bomb China and give yourself a few decades more.

Excellent post, and sums up my frustrations really. The marches and protestations in the U.K. will do nothing. If they’d tidied up 500 beaches or rivers removing plastics and all the other detritus they would have made not only a real statement but actually showed that they will do something. Meanwhile ignoring what China is doing or pretending that marches in countries already trying to clean up their act will achieve nothing......

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Excellent post, and sums up my frustrations really. The marches and protestations in the U.K. will do nothing. If they’d tidied up 500 beaches or rivers removing plastics and all the other detritus they would have made not only a real statement but actually showed that they will do something. Meanwhile ignoring what China is doing or pretending that marches in countries already trying to clean up their act will achieve nothing......

People tidy up beaches and rivers and streets and parks etc off their own back all the time. Every time I take a walk I’ll try to make the effort to pick up a bit litter. A guy I know will take a bin bag to the beach and fill it with rubbish every weekend. In the west end of Newcastle they have a volunteer group, going about with bin bags. Cleaning the streets. Just cos you don’t see it and it’s not all over the news doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
I can kinda see your critique of this kind of movement but think you’re being a bit over cynical here.