Current Affairs Bethnal Green Three

[tim cahill]

So if you have consensual sex in the UK with a 17yr old girl from a US state where the age of consent is 18 have you then raped a US citizen?

If I had groomed her to come over here in the first place for sex then probably, yeah. I’m sure the US would see it that way.

If an 11 year old British girl was groomed to go to Nigeria for sex then I think most of us would see that as rape. Don’t you think? Even though that’s the age of consent there.

 

[ClausThomsen]

I hope she dies somehow. Same for anybody who ever supported or fought for the Islamic State. No exceptions.

Even those who peacefully lived in the region and were coerced into fighting for fear of their lives and the lives of their families?

Do you share the same sentiment for all those who have fought for such oppressive regimes? Or is it the links to terrorism such as those who have played even the most minor part in supporting the activities of Republican or Loyalist forces that leads to you holding this near extremist viewpoint?

Or could it be that the truth in such matters is a little more nuanced?

 

[ClausThomsen]

So if you have consensual sex in the UK with a 17yr old girl from a US state where the age of consent is 18 have you then raped a US citizen?

I think it's illegal if you entice or groom someone across a border with the intent to have sex with them.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

If I had groomed her to come over here in the first place for sex then probably, yeah. I’m sure the US would see it that way.

If an 11 year old British girl was groomed to go to Nigeria for sex then I think most of us would see that as rape. Don’t you think? Even though that’s the age of consent there.

Well that's the crux of the matter, was she groomed?

Radicalised certainly but a grooming accusation is for the courts and legal experts to ascertain.

It's a matter of capacity really. And she was legally of an age to consent in that country. Whatever grooming charge you want to level at someone it simply can't be statutory rape by the law of the country the act was committed in unles there are laws for international citizens that i am unaware of, the age of consent does vary for non nationals in some places i believe.

And as abhorant as the thought is, it would probably apply to the Nigerian scenario you painted too although that is my understanding and I'm happy to be corrected if someone can clarify the international laws on this.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I think it's illegal if you entice or groom someone across a border with the intent to have sex with them.

Yes that sounds accurate but i don't think it has been proven to be the case here.

Obviously she hasn't been tried in a court of law so there's very few things we do know with complete confidence.

Personally i think she had the capacity to weigh up the pros and cons and decide that she wanted to opt out of British society and join a society that is incompatible with British values. She wanted to join a society that would let her marry and start a family. Other western countries have ages of consent lower than 16, these people are not able to weigh up decisions any better than UK people. In UK law she's an adolescent but in other places in Europe and the world she is a full adult able to fully understand, reason and retain information.
It's an important semantic but just a semantic nonetheless. If she had been a few months older and hit 16 there wouldn't be any of this rape nonsense coming from people wanting to frame a narrative.

 

[ClausThomsen]

Yes that sounds accurate but i don't think it has been proven to be the case here.

Obviously she hasn't been tried in a court of law so there's very few things we do know with complete confidence.

Personally i think she had the capacity to weigh up the pros and cons and decide that she wanted to opt out of British society and join a society that is incompatible with British values. She wanted to join a society that would let her marry and start a family. Other western countries have ages of consent lower than 16, these people are not able to weigh up decisions any better than UK people. In UK law she's an adolescent but in other places in Europe and the world she is a full adult able to fully understand, reason and retain information.
It's an important semantic but just a semantic nonetheless. If she had been a few months older and hit 16 there wouldn't be any of this rape nonsense coming from people wanting to frame a narrative.

All fair points but the law of the UK does not recognise consent from 15 year olds. Whether she was able to make a fully considered decision or whether she was a silly schoolgirl is all academic. To argue that she should not have been repatriated is to argue against the legal age of sexual consent. One second you can't give consent, the next second you can. Weird, but in law, semantics or not, there needs to be a line in the sand by necessity.

Legally, morally or by any other measure this is a British citizen who has apparently been illegally stripped of citizenship. I'm all for the full weight of the law being threw at her but a civilised society does not pick and choose when it's values are applied. We define ourselves as good because we hold these values. We can't abandon them because they sometimes make things difficult or messy.

To give people rights is to open the floodgates to those who will abuse those rights. You have to ask yourself what is the greater evil, rights or fear of abuse of those rights. The laws have to be applied fairly to all, even if it is to the detriment of those setting those laws.

Sometimes it's hard to be the good guys.

 

[tim cahill]

Yes that sounds accurate but i don't think it has been proven to be the case here.

Obviously she hasn't been tried in a court of law so there's very few things we do know with complete confidence.

Personally i think she had the capacity to weigh up the pros and cons and decide that she wanted to opt out of British society and join a society that is incompatible with British values. She wanted to join a society that would let her marry and start a family. Other western countries have ages of consent lower than 16, these people are not able to weigh up decisions any better than UK people. In UK law she's an adolescent but in other places in Europe and the world she is a full adult able to fully understand, reason and retain information.
It's an important semantic but just a semantic nonetheless. If she had been a few months older and hit 16 there wouldn't be any of this rape nonsense coming from people wanting to frame a narrative.

That’s the main problem. She should’ve been brought back to face the justice system. Not just be found guilty by an ambitious politician looking for cheap votes.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

All fair points but the law of the UK does not recognise consent from 15 year olds. Whether she was able to make a fully considered decision or whether she was a silly schoolgirl is all academic. To argue that she should not have been repatriated is to argue against the legal age of sexual consent. One second you can't give consent, the next second you can. Weird, but in law, semantics or not, there needs to be a line in the sand by necessity.

Legally, morally or by any other measure this is a British citizen who has apparently been illegally stripped of citizenship. I'm all for the full weight of the law being threw at her but a civilised society does not pick and choose when it's values are applied. We define ourselves as good because we hold these values. We can't abandon them because they sometimes make things difficult or messy.

To give people rights is to open the floodgates to those who will abuse those rights. You have to ask yourself what is the greater evil, rights or fear of abuse of those rights. The laws have to be applied fairly to all, even if it is to the detriment of those setting those laws.

Sometimes it's hard to be the good guys.

I quite agree and I'm not making a case against repatriation, not particularly because i want her back on UK shores but more because as a UK born citizen we have certain responsibilities and i don't believe we should foist our problems on other nations.

However i also think she should be offered no assistance to return and anyone who gives her money etc should be charged with assisting a member of a terrorist organisation. If she makes it back, charge her. If she doesn't...well never mind.

My argument isn't so much about the repatriation anyway it was more the statement that she has been raped and by Syrian law she was able to consent, that is inarguable.

If people want to argue enticement of a minor etc then potentially i suppose that could be possible but its not statutory rape.
The line in the sand we have to go by is the rule of law in the country that the act happened in. If she travelled from France or he Netherlands rape would not be getting mentioned because of the consent age is different. Someone's capacity and ability to consent doesn't change when they cross a border but you have to go by the laws of the country you are in.
I just think its a bit more nuanced than saying she was 15 so she was a victim of rape.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

That’s the main problem. She should’ve been brought back to face the justice system. Not just be found guilty by an ambitious politician looking for cheap votes.

Let them attempt to find their own way back. Absolutely zero consular assistance should be provided.

If they are UK born they should have to face justice here if they escape it over there. Absolutely agree with stripping UK citizenship from any dual national or naturalised citizen who can go elsewhere.

 

[Steve0]

It genuinely wouldn't surprise me if she killed the kid herself to make some sort of weird point. She's crackers that girl. Let her rot.

 

[Steve0]

15 year old girl who made an idiotic immature decision to go and live in The Caliphate after being groomed online and married off to a Dutch nonce. Should be brought back to face trial rather than illegally left stateless to appease right wingers and angry gammons.

The amount of goodwill given to, and excuses made for, violent offenders in this country by some is astounding when compared to the loathing for a girl who made a very misguided and immature decision.

She doesn't think she made an idiotic and immature decision. She'd still be there, helping her lovely husband decapitate gays and burning people alive if it hadn't gone tits up. That's the ONLY reason she wants to come back. She hasn't had a Damascene conversion. Just that a state funded house with healthcare for all her kids is now more appealing than that camp.

Personally i think she was slightly excited to come back, she saw it as another victory: "I go to ISIS, help them perform vile atrocities then i snap my fingers and you dirty kuffar have to take me back and look after me, thanks guys"

 

[Steve0]

So all those girls in Rochdale and Rotherham etc, the fact that they were groomed doesn't excuse them either?

A child groomed by an adult doesn't have an excuse for her actions??? Really?!

This comparison is revolting. Please can you stop.

Firstly the girls in Rotherham were usually far younger than the ISIS soldier. And those girls were subjected to severe physical violence, plied with drugs and alcohol, threatened with death should they say anything, gang raped on a daily basis....

Just a disgusting way to imply hypocrisy. I guess it's up to you but when I see that line churned out it turns my stomach.

 

[Number_25]

A baby died.

 

[jaycee]

A baby died.

Thing is though she put the baby in that situation,as she did with the other two,that is soley on her no one else

 

[Ihaters]

People keep saying 15 like she's someone lying in a cot being read Goldilocks or Red Riding Hood. When I was 15, I was aware enough to know that if I leave my family and go to another country to join a group of psychopaths that are an enemy of my country, that are all over the news hacking people to bits, there may be a little fall out if I change my mind when they get defeated.
Even back then when I was that age I would of looked at the news etc to see what is actually going on, these days with the internet providing all the information you need at the touch of a few buttons, I would sure as **** have checked out what I was getting into, and there is no way she just upped and left her entire life without having a least a bit of a look into what they are.
She was 15, she knew what she was doing... I am not buying the immature decision argument. Radicalisation sure, but a decision born out of being too young to know what she was getting into doesn't add up.

At 15 you know a huge amount. I suspect a few years later she knows a lot more that she didn't want to.

She needs a trial, but she needs to be sentence as a traitor or at the very least POW.