Current Affairs Anti-fascists (antifa), and a nationwide resistance of hate.

[dholliday]

Sorry is this some sort of defence of Nazi’s?

Wow.

No mate, of course not. It's a play on the famous Niemöller poem. You are the "me" who gets punched last, because you advocated for it or at least didn't speak out against it. History tells us societies which advocate violence against people of different beliefs quickly goes to hell.

Advocating illegal violent assault is truly a hell of a thing, especially when the only 'guide' is an overused and generic term that nobody can really define any more: Nazis. You can punch them. Who is a Nazi? What even is a Nazi? Does it matter?

Here's the poem in case you don't know it:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—​

Because I was not a communist.​

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—​

Because I was not a trade unionist.​

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—​

Because I was not a Jew.​

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.​

 

[dholliday]

What @dholliday is patiently trying to enlighten us with is that he alone is capable of rising above the fray by approaching every issue without bias, and with total rationality and detachment (which is NOT AT ALL a self-flattering form of "identity") - and he'll prove it by reciting the Complete List of Logical Fallacies from memory.

He is very disappointed with the rest of us emotional indentitarians.

I'm one of about half-a-dozen in this thread who's posting generally the same thing, only I'm a bit more incessant about it.

 

[Groucho]

Wow.

No mate, of course not. It's a play on the famous Niemöller poem. You are the "me" who gets punched last, because you advocated for it or at least didn't speak out against it. History tells us societies which advocate violence against people of different beliefs quickly goes to hell.

Advocating illegal violent assault is truly a hell of a thing, especially when the only 'guide' is an overused and generic term that nobody can really define any more: Nazis. You can punch them. Who is a Nazi? What even is a Nazi? Does it matter?

Here's the poem in case you don't know it:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—​

Because I was not a communist.​

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—​

Because I was not a trade unionist.​

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—​

Because I was not a Jew.​

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.​

Personally I’d like to think I’d speak out against Nazi’s rather than in defence of them. Taking a central stance with them ends up with carnage and warfare.

Should we have stood by in 1939? I think not. Sometimes it’s ok to take a positive stance.

If you don’t stand up against Nazi’s they’ll sure as hell do more than punch you.

 

[MikeH72]

Genuinely uncomfortable with how the word Nazi gets thrown around these days tbh.

 

[abelard]

I'm one of about half-a-dozen in this thread who's posting generally the same thing, only I'm a bit more incessant about it.

There are about half-a-dozen in this thread (myself included) who think it's a bit silly to make a show out of punching type-II diabetes cosplay Nazis.

But, possibly apart from the guy who really doesn't like overpriced coffee, you're the only one who thinks "identity politics" and Jordan Peterson somehow has anything to do with this, which, as several have suggested, is probably telling.

And when it comes to the real thing, @Groucho and @Number_25 are correct: if you think liberal niceties and waving your copy of Robert's Rules of Order about will save you then you should probably read more history

 

[dholliday]

Personally I’d like to think I’d speak out against Nazi’s rather than in defence of them. Taking a central stance with them ends up with carnage and warfare.

Should we have stood by in 1939? I think not. Sometimes it’s ok to take a positive stance.

I agree if it were 1939. Or if there was a similar Nazi-level threat. But there's nothing like that, not remotely. I did ask you to define what a Nazi in 2018 is, because I and many other traditionally-left people have been labelled a Nazi for expressing views different to contemporary 'progressive' far-leftism. Which is doubly-weird for me (and doubly-wrong).

That's the key thing to consider when calling for violence: who will be the victims of such violence and do they deserve it? History is awash with clear answers on this.

Somebody starts a fight or is otherwise out-of-control aggro: sure, punch him to make him stop.
Somebody has different views to you? No, you don't bloody punch him! This should be obvious.

Imagine if the Far Right advocate punching people who they feel have Stalinist/Maoist ideals (even tho' they're only supporting Corbyn)....that would be terrible, no? That equivalent is what you're potentially, via the domino-effect, advocating.

 

[dholliday]

There are about half-a-dozen in this thread (myself included) who think it's a bit silly to make a show out of punching type-II diabetes cosplay Nazis.

But, possibly apart from the guy who really doesn't like overpriced coffee, you're the only one who thinks "identity politics" and Jordan Peterson somehow has anything to do with this, which, as several have suggested, is probably telling.

And when it comes to the real thing, @Groucho and @Number_25 are correct: if you think liberal niceties and waving your copy of Robert's Rules of Order about will save you then you should probably read more history

We both invoke history yet have entirely opposing views on what it tells us.

For me it's simple. I don't support pre-emptive violence against anyone and will be very vocal against those that do.

 

[Groucho]

Imagine if the Far Right advocate punching people

Mate they literally killed millions.

 

[MikeH72]

Mate they literally killed millions.

So you admit that comparing some braindead EDL idiots waving Union Jack flags to a political powerhouse that slaughtered 6 million people in cold blood is a bit off?

 

[Prevenger17]

Mate they literally killed millions.

The creepy Free Tommy virgin-types, as loathsome as they are, haven't killed millions.

 

[Blue 1]

Imagine if the Far Right advocate punching people who they feel have Stalinist/Maoist ideals (even tho' they're only supporting Corbyn)....that would be terrible, no? That equivalent is what you're potentially, via the domino-effect, advocating.

Erm... They do. Frequently.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Genuinely uncomfortable with how the word Nazi gets thrown around these days tbh.

Agree.

Us mods get called it on a weekly basis ffs.

 

[dholliday]

Mate they literally killed millions.

and they're all long dead now, if there are any left alive they're well in their 90's. You want to punch old men in their 90's?

If you're referring to someone else, you have to clearly say who. EDL-supporters, for example, I'm not aware that they support the Nazi mass-murder of millions of innocents. So who do you want to punch in the face exactly?

 

[MikeH72]

and they're all long dead now, if there are any left alive they're well in their 90's. You want to punch old men in their 90's?

If you're referring to someone else, you have to clearly say who. EDL-supporters, for example, I'm not aware that they support the Nazi mass-murder of millions of innocents. So who do you want to punch in the face exactly?

When Antifa say “punch a Nazi” they mean “punch a Trump voter”.

 

[dholliday]

Erm... They do. Frequently.

I admit I haven't seen any it's ok to punch a communist stickers.