A concern about Martinez's approach

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Sharp is running the story everything was hunky dory previously ie we were winners playing good stuff.

A quick perusal of any Everton forum shows that as far from universally accepted indeed a goodly portion of fans point to the known regular failures as evidence that "winning" didn't happen enough.

Those of a certain expectation level counter with "it was great" which is their prerogative but thinking otherwise leads to only one conclusion - change MUST happen.

To believe players bought by Moyes to play a certain simplistic way will cope immediately with a more skilled approach without problems from day one is simply not realistic - there again eulogising the previous regime as "winners" is surely just a bit of fun - so I don't take Sharp too seriously these days.

Why would he be "running a story" here?

Maybe he's just giving his opinion? He also never said everything was 'hunky dory' so can we leave out the hyperbole?

He's merely stating the bleeding obvious imo, that is basically that whilst Martinez might want to change the style of the teams play, that he needs to do it whilst delivering results. A period of flux & indifferent results for a short period will be acceptable to most & he mentions the need for patience, but his reminder that it's a results business is valid, as it is. Martinez long periods of awful results at Wigan, won't be tolerated at Goodison - fact.

 

[davek]

Sharp is running the story everything was hunky dory previously ie we were winners playing good stuff.

A quick perusal of any Everton forum shows that as far from universally accepted indeed a goodly portion of fans point to the known regular failures as evidence that "winning" didn't happen enough.

Those of a certain expectation level counter with "it was great" which is their prerogative but thinking otherwise leads to only one conclusion - change MUST happen.

To believe players bought by Moyes to play a certain simplistic way will cope immediately with a more skilled approach without problems from day one is simply not realistic - there again eulogising the previous regime as "winners" is surely just a bit of fun - so I don't take Sharp too seriously these days.

Moyes was a dullard who, by and large, brought in players who could play adequately in a number of positions. He calculated and schemed primarily, not to entertain (which, the last time I looked football is all about), but to get to safety and then find the extra points that could help him impress others about what a sound job he was doing, regardless of the style of play. I cringe for the people counting on the fingers of two hands the examples of Moyes' teams playing good football. He was here 11 years. He never had Everton respected as a good footballing team. Martinez's task is to get a different culture in place. It'll take him time and he'll need his own players in place ultimately, not the utility players bought by his predecessor; but it'll be worth it if we can drag ourselves back again to a point where 'the school of science' means something more than a nice line trotted out to flog merchandise.

 

[davek]

Why would he be "running a story" here?

Maybe he's just giving his opinion? He also never said everything was 'hunky dory' so can we leave out the hyperbole?

He's merely stating the bleeding obvious imo, that is basically that whilst Martinez might want to change the style of the teams play, that he needs to do it whilst delivering results. A period of flux & indifferent results for a short period will be acceptable to most & he mentions the need for patience, but his reminder that it's a results business is valid, as it is. Martinez long periods of awful results at Wigan, won't be tolerated at Goodison - fact.

Sharp is just a hanger on these days who really should keep it shut. He's on a nice little earner at L4 for doing basically **** all. If he thinks his job description extends to telling our manager how he should proceed he's wrong. He was an embarrassment as a manager himself, and he's got a brass neck giving out advice to a man who's resurrected a football club and sent it on its way at Swansea and won the first trophy ever in the history of another club. It's unbelievable to me that Sharp reckons he has anything of worth to say on this subject.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Sharp is just a hanger on these days who really should keep it shut. He's on a nice little earner at L4 for doing basically **** all. If he thinks his job description extends to telling our manager how he should proceed he's wrong. He was an embarrassment as a manager himself, and he's got a brass neck giving out advice to a man who's resurrected a football club and sent it on its way at Swansea and won the first trophy ever in the history of another club. It's unbelievable to me that Sharp reckons he has anything of worth to say on this subject.

All he said in essence was "passing on it's own, is worth **** all", I don't understand the need for a vitriolic attack on the fella, who lest we forget was part of our best squad in the modern era like.....

Give it a month or so & I reckon you'll be like those kopites from last season mate, measuring our 'progress' in passes completed.....

 

[davek]

All he said in essence was "passing on it's own, is worth **** all", I don't understand the need for a vitriolic attack on the fella, who lest we forget was part of our best squad in the modern era like.....

Give it a month or so & I reckon you'll be like those kopites from last season mate, measuring our 'progress' in passes completed.....

Sharp has the right to talk about goalscoring and attacking play in general. He's defo earned the right to do that. But he must realise himself how stupid it sounds for a feller who's only managerial credential was to get Oldham in a right mess to hand out advice to Martinez. As far as your other point goes: you completely misunderstand why Rodgers claiming the passing game 'victory' was funny in the first place: he had a kings ransom to get players in to supplement a team already with bags of talent in it and he (literally) couldn't buy a result. And, yes, if we begin to get hold of the ball and keep it I'll say it is progress. Maybe you think it'd mean the opposite?

 

[nigelcoyb]

All he said in essence was "passing on it's own, is worth **** all", I don't understand the need for a vitriolic attack on the fella, who lest we forget was part of our best squad in the modern era like.....

Give it a month or so & I reckon you'll be like those kopites from last season mate, measuring our 'progress' in passes completed.....

It's such self evident pointless nonsense though, I'm damn sure managers advocating this type of football do so because they ultimately believe it is winning football.

For all the japes we have about Brendan Rogers not for a moment do I think he comforts himself with winning the passing stats when they've just been ****ted. It is no co-incidence British Isles international teams are at an all time low the brains trust of coaching in this country continually producing the likes of Moyes, Mcarthy, Mcleish etc needs updating and patronising twaddle like this from former pros just feeds the idea everything is just fine.

More power to individuals (whoever they be) for ignoring what is patently wrong and trying something innovative hopefully Martinez bravery will be rewarded (and Rogers not) but Liverpool had a shte season last year and give their man a chance we should do the same.

 

[davek]

It's such self evident pointless nonsense though, I'm damn sure managers advocating this type of football do so because they ultimately believe it is winning football.

For all the japes we have about Brendan Rogers not for a moment do I think he comforts himself with winning the passing stats when they've just been ****ted. It is no co-incidence British Isles international teams are at an all time low the brains trust of coaching in this country continually producing the likes of Moyes, Mcarthy, Mcleish etc needs updating and patronising twaddle like this from former pros just feeds the idea everything is just fine.

More power to individuals (whoever they be) for ignoring what is patently wrong and trying something innovative hopefully Martinez bravery will be rewarded (and Rogers not) but Liverpool had a shte season last year and give their man a chance we should do the same.

Spot on that. Sharp is just playing to the gallery with his comments. He knows it'll resonate with a section of fans who wallow in being a bit thick and just caring about getting enough points to eek out a PL existence...ever ready to sneer at the mention of approaching the game with anything but pragmatism and avoiding risk taking at all costs.

 

[Timak]

It's such self evident pointless nonsense though, I'm damn sure managers advocating this type of football do so because they ultimately believe it is winning football.

For all the japes we have about Brendan Rogers not for a moment do I think he comforts himself with winning the passing stats when they've just been ****ted. It is no co-incidence British Isles international teams are at an all time low the brains trust of coaching in this country continually producing the likes of Moyes, Mcarthy, Mcleish etc needs updating and patronising twaddle like this from former pros just feeds the idea everything is just fine.

I'm never sure if you are a forum character of actually fully believe what you post.

Moyes was an excellent Everton manager and continually got us to very high league positions.

He is now the manager of Manchester United. They picked him above every other manager in world football because of the job he did here.

I can understand you might not have enjoyed large periods of the football he played when he was in charge. Fair enough.

However when you start lumping him in with failed managers it is just weird. He was by no means a long ball manager or in any way "old school". We regularly got 60 odd points in the league which was a feet unmatched by any other club on a similar budget. Our style evolved as he put together a squad and played some excellent football when he assembled it.

Martinez may well do well with us but the facts are clear, he very rarely broke the 40 point barrier and always let in at least 60 goals. It is a huge step up for him.

 

[Timak]

Spot on that. Sharp is just playing to the gallery with his comments. He knows it'll resonate with a section of fans who wallow in being a bit thick and just caring about getting enough points to eek out a PL existence...ever ready to sneer at the mention of approaching the game with anything but pragmatism and avoiding risk taking at all costs.

And the award for patronising poster of the day goes to......

At least the matchday threads after defeats this season will be entertaining with you and Nigel unsure of who to blame with Moyes gone.

 

[davek]

And the award for patronising poster of the day goes to......

At least the matchday threads after defeats this season will be entertaining with you and Nigel unsure of who to blame with Moyes gone.

Oh, I always know who ultimately is to blame at this club. You might want to apply that hierarchy of blame to your own patronising posts about Martinez. BTW, just remind me again, apart from your selective use of fachts from Opta, what makes you think you can critique a manager who's experienced trophy success?

 

[billycopper]

Everton legend Graeme Sharp has told new manager Martinez points and not performances must remain the priority.

“The football under David Moyes towards the end of his time in charge was excellent and enjoyable to watch,” said Sharp. “And most importantly, it got results.

“There’s no use playing all this pretty passing football if you aren’t going to turn it into points. You can talk all you want about systems and formations, but it means nothing unless you are getting victories.

“But I’m sure the fans will get behind the new manager, because they will be able to see what he is trying to do.”

Sharp added: “Supporters are going to see a lot more passing than maybe they have been used to during the past decade.

“The keeper will be throwing the ball out more, the team will try to play more out of the back and there won’t be as many long balls bypassing midfield.

“The fans will have to be patient but the one thing everyone must remember is that it’s all about winning.”

Read more: Liverpool Daily Post Graeme Sharp: Don't sacrifice substance for style - Everton FC News - Everton FC - Sport - Liverpool Daily Post http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...news/2013/08/08/99623-33702690/#ixzz2bMCuOgm4

I don't disagree with any of that. Under Moyes first and foremost we were hard to beat. Hopefully we'd nick a goal and hang on to it but, if not, a draw wasn't too bad. I think there was a change in the league generally last season though where there was less emphasis on defending and more on trying to outscore the opposition. And, if teams are going to come at us more, it's going to be difficult to win games unless we're more clinical on the counter attack.

Martinez needs to tweak the way we play and that will involve a period where players will need to 'unlearn' some of Moysie's philosophies and learn new ones. I always had my doubts whether, if we did make the CL under Moyes, top class European sides would make our pressing game look like it came from the dark ages. Hopefully we can evolve under Roberto and play in a manner benefitting the School of Science.

As I've said before I don't think we'll achieve many less points next season than we did last season. We drew 15 games (the joint most in the league), so there are plenty more points still to be played for. I think that Goodison will continue to be a fortress and, given that Wigan won away at Spurs, West Brom, Southampton, Reading and Villa last season I don't see why our away form should suffer too much either.

 

[Timak]

Oh, I always know who ultimately is to blame at this club. You might want to apply that hierarchy of blame to your own patronising posts about Martinez. BTW, just remind me again, apart from your selective use of fachts from Opta, what makes you think you can critique a manager who's experienced trophy success?

I don't need to use selective facts from Opta.

It is clear from a glance at the league table that Wigan under Martinez were no good. If you want to add a caveat to that stating the financial pressures they operate under then you also have to do that for Moyes. And it is obvious that Everton "overachieved" far more than Wigan if you do.

They won a cup which was a huge achievement but so did Birmingham under McLeish and you aren't clamouring for him.

 

[Essex Blue]

I just hope that everyone understands that the reason Martinez won't do as well as Moyes, is because we will be playing superior football under Martinez.

I've heard his teams can notch up up to 700 or 800 passes in one game, it just doesn't get any better than that.

 

[tim cahill]

I just hope that everyone understands that the reason Martinez won't do as well as Moyes, is because we will be playing superior football under Martinez.

I've heard his teams can notch up up to 700 or 800 passes in one game, it just doesn't get any better than that.

Hmmmm?

 

[davek]

I don't need to use selective facts from Opta.

It is clear from a glance at the league table that Wigan under Martinez were no good. If you want to add a caveat to that stating the financial pressures they operate under then you also have to do that for Moyes. And it is obvious that Everton "overachieved" far more than Wigan if you do.

They won a cup which was a huge achievement but so did Birmingham under McLeish and you aren't clamouring for him.

The only way of comparing the two is to see what they do with the same club and the same resources. What you're doing with your constant referrals to Martinez at Wigan is to measure two entirely different things. It's bogus analysis because of that. As I've said to you in the past, the only real (and still imprecise) measure we have right now in terms of both men's capabilities is to compare their times in charge of clubs in the Championship.

I just hope that everyone understands that the reason Martinez won't do as well as Moyes, is because we will be playing superior football under Martinez.

I've heard his teams can notch up up to 700 or 800 passes in one game, it just doesn't get any better than that.

Yes, yes...but that's not as impressive as winning the 60 odd points in one season trophy. That's right up there with any one of the 9 league titles and 5 FA Cup wins.