84% of fans think Everton is a well run club.

[Ihaters]

Not in terms of questions just in terms of voters, I think.

I haven't read either but he seems to be arguing that the questions are worded simarly, it's just that different people are taking them.

So it's not a case where say 90% agree that "given the ammount of club in danger of bankrupty everton is largely in a good position" and 80% agree that "given how little money everton have spent there are worries about their ability to remain competitive in the future". Because leading questions was my proposed answer for the massively differing results.

That was my confusion because on one hand you have an open survey asking questions such as

*How do you rate the catering?

On the other you have a survey with a multiple choice question:

*In your opinion, what is the biggest failing of the current board of directors?

* Kings Dock
* Lack of Investment
* Kirkby
* No Trophies

The two are massively different in what they are trying to get out of the fans..
Questions including:
Do you believe the current board of directors have lied to the fans throughout the past 14 years?

Simply doesn't compare to a survey asking (not just Everton fans) how do you rate the matchday programmes?

Put it this way, if I posted 10 questions from the two at random, you would get 10 right as to which poll they came from.

 

[Allezfan]

That was my confusion because on one hand you have an open survey asking questions such as

*How do you rate the catering?

On the other you have a survey with a multiple choice question:

*In your opinion, what is the biggest failing of the current board of directors?

* Kings Dock
* Lack of Investment
* Kirkby
* No Trophies

The two are massively different in what they are trying to get out of the fans..
Questions including:
Do you believe the current board of directors have lied to the fans throughout the past 14 years?

Simply doesn't compare to a survey asking (not just Everton fans) how do you rate the matchday programmes?

Put it this way, if I posted 10 questions from the two at random, you would get 10 right as to which poll they came from.

Oh wow, that kind of settles why the results are so different like.

 

[Ihaters]

Oh wow, that kind of settles why the results are so different like.

If your interested there is this old one I found:
http://www.premierleague.com/conten...s/fan-surveys/national-fan-survey-2005-06.pdf

And this is the SOS one
http://www.sos1878.co.uk/everton-ne...ults-90-of-blues-worry-about-evertons-future/

 

[Ihaters]

Mate. If I hadn't just seen people overthrowing dictators right across the arabian peninsula and north africa I'd agree. But I have so I don't.

You get what your willing to put up with. If a majority of Man Utd fans had been so disgusted with the glazers they all left and formed FC United of Manchester then within 5 or 10 years that club would look very different and FC would be built in an image of what they want their club to be.

Not sure whether your point is that we should take up arms, storm Goodison, shoot our way through to Kenwrights office and lob him out the window, or that he is as bad as Gaddafi in some way. Some on here would agree to both I am sure.

If neither of those things and you are just letting us know what can be done, then I point you to Stauffenberg who nearly assassinated Hitler and led an uprising throughout the ranks.. which then failed and they all got killed, or the many cases where an uprising simply exchanged one evil for another, often worse one. You do indeed reep what you sow.

We are in the chase for Champions League, our finances are better than a lot of clubs, our incomes higher than many, in fact financially whilst we should be better, we are around mid table in ni on every aspect, whilst hiring, keeping and supporting a manager that has improved us massively and see's us regularly chasing or achieving Europe.
Hardly surprising that a full revolt amongst the fans hasn't happened is it? Comparing us to Arabia or any uprising, even the United one is just daft.

Next year though.. If Moyes leaves and if we don't improve... Then you'll get your revolt mate.

 

[davek]

Am I misreading this, are you saying the SOS questionnaire isn't biased in comparison to the PL one?

As I said, 'in the main' the questions were value free (3 out of the 11 were leading questions, the rest were neutral and got very striking percentages). And the PL survey were merely of the 'how pleased with the club are you?' variety...which is leading in and of itself.

You're kidding yourself if you think one is more 'biased' than the other.

 

[chicoazul]

As I said, 'in the main' the questions were value free (3 out of the 11 were leading questions, the rest were neutral and got very striking percentages). And the PL survey were merely of the 'how pleased with the club are you?' variety...which is leading in and of itself.

You're kidding yourself if you think one is more 'biased' than the other.

FFS. What you doing on at the witching hour lid?

The Northwood Star keeping you awake?!

 

[Ihaters]

As I said, 'in the main' the questions were value free (3 out of the 11 were leading questions, the rest were neutral and got very striking percentages). And the PL survey were merely of the 'how pleased with the club are you?' variety...which is leading in and of itself.

You're kidding yourself if you think one is more 'biased' than the other.

lol.. Just no

 

[Coach]

As I said, 'in the main' the questions were value free (3 out of the 11 were leading questions, the rest were neutral and got very striking percentages). And the PL survey were merely of the 'how pleased with the club are you?' variety...which is leading in and of itself.

You're kidding yourself if you think one is more 'biased' than the other.

LOL

The SOS view is clearly anti-board and spends a lot of time trying to convince its readers of that view.

The SOS Survey is preceeded by this statement

Intrigued by the results of yesterday’s Premier League annual survey, we here at SOS1878 have decided to conduct one of our own which we hope will be more representative of current Evertonian feeling

It is clear that SOS disagree with the findings of the independent survey and are implicitly encouraging respondees to their (self selecting) alternate survey to agree with the SOS view.



It is about context davek. It couldn't get more biased if it tried.

 

[Little Ralphy]

They are aspects of the football business. They have been since Bill was in the boys pen. Earl made his money in catering, our friend Green in retail and merchandising. Surely we could cut out the middle man with experts like these on hand?

If we don't manage them can you suggest what people actually do all day at GP?

But football as a business has changed a lot since Bill was in the boys pen. Business itself has changed a lot since then. Without getting in to all the ins and outs of outsourcing, most businesses have gone down this route. That’s why you have huge companies like Accenture, HP, IBM and BT etc. I think the fact that so many companies do outsource certain activities, suggests that it is more profitable than managing in-house. Didn’t a lot of clubs used to make losses on some of these activities, until they started outsourcing? As I said before Everton are a football club, not a catering or merchandising company.

I’m guessing you obviously know the answer already, but Football owners/major shareholders usually have a day job. The one where they made all their money. That’s what they’ll be doing all day, along with a bit of golf no doubt. Suntan Bob will likely be the most senior admin. staff involved in the day to day running of Everton. People on site will be involved in ticketing, websites, accounting and general admin. etc. like in most companies. The others will just be involved in board meetings etc.

I’m not saying Everton’s set up is ideal, or the shining light, but you are criticising them for doing things that pretty much all businesses are doing.

 

[davek]

LOL

The SOS view is clearly anti-board and spends a lot of time trying to convince its readers of that view.

The SOS Survey is preceeded by this statement



It is clear that SOS disagree with the findings of the independent survey and are implicitly encouraging respondees to their (self selecting) alternate survey to agree with the SOS view.



It is about context davek. It couldn't get more biased if it tried.

lol.. Just no

Do you really think PL surveys are set out with an objective set of questions? They have a range of choices that veer from "very satisfied" with what amounts to their individual business associate's efforts in catering to 'the customer' of 'their industry' to "not satisfied". If you think that's any worse than the SOS questioning in prompting a response you're kidding yourselves. They are asking questions designed to prove that their industry's business model is functioning properly. It;s very naive to believe they could be neutral.

Here's some of the SOS questions, btw:

Q. Do you believe that Bill Kenwright is actively trying to sell the club?

Q. Do you believe the club’s asking price is prohibitive?

Q. Do you feel the current board of directors have a plan to move the club forward?

Q. Are you a season ticket holder?

Q. If you are a season ticket holder, do you plan on renewing for season 2013/14?

Q. Do you worry about the long-term future of Everton Football Club?

Q. Do you expect the ownership to change at Everton in the next three years?

Not exactly controversial are they? In fact, they could have been on the PL survey...and indeed they were in a slightly altered form....which is why the disparity in results between the two surveys is very dubious.

 

[steken1]

But football as a business has changed a lot since Bill was in the boys pen. Business itself has changed a lot since then. Without getting in to all the ins and outs of outsourcing, most businesses have gone down this route. That’s why you have huge companies like Accenture, HP, IBM and BT etc. I think the fact that so many companies do outsource certain activities, suggests that it is more profitable than managing in-house. Didn’t a lot of clubs used to make losses on some of these activities, until they started outsourcing? As I said before Everton are a football club, not a catering or merchandising company.

I’m guessing you obviously know the answer already, but Football owners/major shareholders usually have a day job. The one where they made all their money. That’s what they’ll be doing all day, along with a bit of golf no doubt. Suntan Bob will likely be the most senior admin. staff involved in the day to day running of Everton. People on site will be involved in ticketing, websites, accounting and general admin. etc. like in most companies. The others will just be involved in board meetings etc.

I’m not saying Everton’s set up is ideal, or the shining light, but you are criticising them for doing things that pretty much all businesses are doing.

Not for Everton, we still do pretty much what we did 20 years ago. Selling pies and pasties or producing 3 course meals of decent quality and selling them to people via matchday programmes, websites, in ground advertising or even direct sales will have all been going on for a long, long time.

We should have perfected it by now. If we haven't we should look to the director with expertise in that area so we maximise our money. We make a loss every year! Can we afford to have other companies profiting at our expense?

Some companies outsource. If you think it's most I'd be happy to see the evidence and be proven wrong? Usually they do that with an idea of focusing on their core business which they know inside out. What we've outsourced is our core business as the manager looks after all on-field matters.

Kit bag are paying us £3m a year to run our merchandising and they played a role in negotiating our kit deal. One we got shafted on. I'd imagine they're making at least the same back for themsleves. That's more money our retail expert could have helped us make.

The only regular business that goes on at GP without partners is ticket sales.

 

[Coach]

Here's some of the SOS questions, btw:

Q. Do you believe that Bill Kenwright is actively trying to sell the club?

Q. Do you believe the club’s asking price is prohibitive?

Q. Do you feel the current board of directors have a plan to move the club forward?

Q. Are you a season ticket holder?

Q. If you are a season ticket holder, do you plan on renewing for season 2013/14?

Q. Do you worry about the long-term future of Everton Football Club?

Q. Do you expect the ownership to change at Everton in the next three years?

Not exactly controversial are they? In fact, they could have been on the PL survey...and indeed they were in a slightly altered form....which is why the disparity in results between the two surveys is very dubious.

Frame that survey with "we think the other survey results were wrong - now answer our survey which we hope will give the right results".

Frame those questions in the context of a website which exhorts seaon ticket holders not to renew their tickets and in justifying this stance supplies the answers for their readers to most of those questions above.

If you tell people the answers then ask them the questions then of course you will get the kind of results seen in the SOS survey.

It is clearly a very biased survey.

 

[Ihaters]

Do you really think PL surveys are set out with an objective set of questions? They have a range of choices that veer from "very satisfied" with what amounts to their individual business associate's efforts in catering to 'the customer' of 'their industry' to "not satisfied". If you think that's any worse than the SOS questioning in prompting a response you're kidding yourselves. They are asking questions designed to prove that their industry's business model is functioning properly. It;s very naive to believe they could be neutral.

And you've argued my point perfectly

Here's some of the SOS questions, btw:

Q. Do you believe that Bill Kenwright is actively trying to sell the club?

Q. Do you believe the club’s asking price is prohibitive?

Q. Do you feel the current board of directors have a plan to move the club forward?

Q. Are you a season ticket holder?

Q. If you are a season ticket holder, do you plan on renewing for season 2013/14?

Q. Do you worry about the long-term future of Everton Football Club?

Q. Do you expect the ownership to change at Everton in the next three years?

Not exactly controversial are they? In fact, they could have been on the PL survey...and indeed they were in a slightly altered form....which is why the disparity in results between the two surveys is very dubious.

HAHAHA FFS!

Add in the other three and the questions as a whole speak for themselves:
Q. Do you trust the current board of directors to sell the club to the right people?
Q. Do you believe the current board of directors have lied to the fans throughout the past 14 years?
Q. Finally, in your opinion, what is the biggest failing of the current board of directors?Kings Dock (49%) Lack of Investment (28%) Kirkby (13%) No Trophies (10%)
If you can't see hows that list of questions about how trustworthy or competent the Everton board are, is different to an independent survey asking questions to every clubs fans about the fans experience, then you really are too blinkered for any level of reasoned debate.

Just out of curiosity which questions have been... slightly altered... from the original?

 

[davek]

Frame that survey with "we think the other survey results were wrong - now answer our survey which we hope will give the right results".

Frame those questions in the context of a website which exhorts seaon ticket holders not to renew their tickets and in justifying this stance supplies the answers for their readers to most of those questions above.

If you tell people the answers then ask them the questions then of course you will get the kind of results seen in the SOS survey.

It is clearly a very biased survey.

Allow the PL survey to be channelled through the prism of each club's own official website then that's equally unobjective as a way of framing the debate, isn't it?

And I dont think the majority of people are reading the whole of the SOS webpage before completing the survey - I know I didn't. I just ticked boxes and left the site. Yes, the preamble to it was instructive, but no one forces you to be one of the 90% who were clearly disgruntled enough to say so.

As I say, to make a distinction between the PL and SOS surveys on grounds that one is clearly more objective than the other is completely ridiculous. It just underlines how unthinking we can be about those who control football and how they dictate our understanding about what's acceptable.

 

[davek]

HAHAHA FFS!

Add in the other three and the questions as a whole speak for themselves:
Q. Do you trust the current board of directors to sell the club to the right people?
Q. Do you believe the current board of directors have lied to the fans throughout the past 14 years?
Q. Finally, in your opinion, what is the biggest failing of the current board of directors?Kings Dock (49%) Lack of Investment (28%) Kirkby (13%) No Trophies (10%)
If you can't see hows that list of questions about how trustworthy or competent the Everton board are, is different to an independent survey asking questions to every clubs fans about the fans experience, then you really are too blinkered for any level of reasoned debate.

Just out of curiosity which questions have been... slightly altered... from the original?

You're putting forward nothing more than I've conceded already.

Your argument is bankrupt because you're unwilling to accept that there's crossover between many of the questions put forward by each survey and a lack of recognition that both SOS and PL surveys are framing the debate from different perspectives. In short, your pov is crude and lacking in rigour and nuance to take on board what's being argued here.