84% of fans think Everton is a well run club.

[davek]

Show me these identical questions you refer to that makes my argument bankrupt?
Your talking nonesense

How positive are you about your club?
How well is your club being run?

...they bear very close comparison with, respectively:

Do you worry about the long-term future of Everton Football Club?
Do you feel the current board of directors have a plan to move the club forward?

...and they get massively different results.

One is about the fans, one is about the board. One basis its results against other clubs, the other is purely about the board. One is hosted on an award winningly highly frequented website, one is the equivelent of posting an Atheism survey on an American Deep faith healer site, one has a series of questions realating to clubs and the premier league, one is entirely based around the board... In short..
They are very different and your conversation with Artetafan was wrong. They are not similar, they are not replicas, they are not related surveys, SOS didn't do its own version of the PL survey, they did their own about the board survey.
Neither are wrong, neither are worthless, both give false readings which all polls will unless you ask every single fan, neither are conspiracies, but the two are very.... very.... very different surveys with very different questions and answers.
Oh and yes sorry but the bias in the questions is very much evident in the SOS poll.

Yes, because the PL poll is, as you stated earlier, 'independent'...a survey run through every member club's own OS (handy that), and conducted by the industry itself - which really, really wants to construct questions to prove to the world its 'product' is not valued by its 'customers'.

Good Lord.

 

[Ihaters]

How positive are you about your club?

Very positive, we are doing really well in the league and have just won a horde of awards for our matchdays, also our season ticket prices very cheap and we are in the race for 4th spot.

How well is your club being run?

About average, we have average debt, average wage bill, average income and basically its about average

...they bear very close comparison with, respectively:

Do you worry about the long-term future of Everton Football Club?

Not with the current owners who will always walk the fine line between not spending enough and not getting into unmanageable debt, a change of manager may alter things though and we'll never challenge for the signature of Messi under them

Do you feel the current board of directors have a plan to move the club forward?

No, they are clueless as to how to make money

...and they get massively different results.





Yes, because the PL poll is, as you stated earlier, 'independent'...a survey run through every member club's own OS (handy that), and conducted by the industry itself - which really, really wants to construct questions to prove to the world its 'product' is not valued by its 'customers'.

Good Lord.

Where else would you put fan surveys for all the football clubs other than on the football clubs websites?
The awards are about which areas of which clubs are most appreciated by its fans.. The questions in it in no way relate to the ones in the other poll..
The two minor modified ones as you put it above are 4 completely different questions.
I have shown this with my answers to all 4.

Good lord indeed

 

[davek]

Where else would you put fan surveys for all the football clubs other than on the football clubs websites?
The awards are about which areas of which clubs are most appreciated by its fans.. The questions in it in no way relate to the ones in the other poll..
The two minor modified ones as you put it above are 4 completely different questions.
I have shown this with my answers to all 4.

Good lord indeed

Erm...here, on its own site: http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb.html

They could get that survey well publicised and then leave it to fans to find their way to their page. They dont and it compromises it.

It's very far from being the independent poll you argue it to be. It's constructed by the industry and kept in-house with its exclusive distribution.

This division of 'fan survey = bad, subjective, biased'; 'industry survey = good, objective, unbiased' you're putting forward wont hold water.

 

[Ihaters]

Erm...here, on its own site: http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb.html

They could get that survey well publicised and then leave it to fans to find their way to their page. They dont and it compromises it.

It's very far from being the independent poll you argue it to be. It's constructed by the industry and kept in-house with its exclusive distribution.

This division of 'fan survey = bad, subjective, biased'; 'industry survey = good, objective, unbiased' you're putting forward wont hold water.

Yeah if you put it on the Premiership site then publicize it you get the situation Artetafan mentions of people going there with an agenda instead of just casual viewers..
However if you put it on the OS of the clubs then you get the attention of the average fans whilst they are renewing their tickets or buying something on line etc.
I am still not sure what conspiracy you feel has happened between the PL and the board here or what is to be gained by manipulating the results that see us having the 6th best Programme Sellers I am sure but whatever floats your boat?

Let me ask you this do you feel both these polls are biased or just the one from the PL?

 

[davek]

Yeah if you put it on the Premiership site then publicize it you get the situation Artetafan mentions of people going there with an agenda instead of just casual viewers..
However if you put it on the OS of the clubs then you get the attention of the average fans whilst they are renewing their tickets or buying something on line etc.
I am still not sure what conspiracy you feel has happened between the PL and the board here or what is to be gained by manipulating the results that see us having the 6th best Programme Sellers I am sure but whatever floats your boat?

Let me ask you this do you feel both these polls are biased or just the one from the PL?

I dont understand how that annual survey going on the PL site would attract 'those with an agenda'...and I'm supposed to be the one here who believes in conspiracies?!

TBF, I think you're struggling here to defend the PL survey as the independent, polar opposite 'objective' pollsters to the survey carried out by the unofficial fan forum's.

They both have different perspectives, that's all. I just would have thought that as a fan yourself and not an industry insider you might have given a bit more credence to the fans survey - given that, as we know, it reflects much better the usual online conclusions regarding the board and their performance.

 

[Ihaters]

I dont understand how that annual survey going on the PL site would attract 'those with an agenda'...and I'm supposed to be the one here who believes in conspiracies?!

TBF, I think you're struggling here to defend the PL survey as the independent, polar opposite 'objective' pollsters to the survey carried out by the unofficial fan forum's.

They both have different perspectives, that's all. I just would have thought that as a fan yourself and not an industry insider you might have given a bit more credence to the fans survey - given that, as we know, it reflects much better the usual online conclusions regarding the board and their performance.

Who said it was the polar opposite? Stop making things up, I am saying they are completely different not the polar opposite, your saying they are the same except the PL one is biased.

I am pretty sure you understood what AF was saying about those seeking out a survey tend to do so with a certain objective, and I don't need to defend anything that I have said and I don't need to defend the objectivity of the survey.. you however are claiming that the PL one which seeks to find out which fans enjoyed their experience most is clearly biased, whilst you claim there is no bias in a poll that has a question:

*In your opinion, what is the biggest failing of the current board of directors?

* Kings Dock
* Lack of Investment
* Kirkby
* No Trophies

Asks questions about whether the board lies etc

Unless your now accepting that the SOS is biased as well as the PL poll which you have clearly taken a dislike to, I would have to say its not me presenting weak arguments, and its not me that needs to defend my position.

SOS poll is very anti the board
PL poll is not
Both asked completely different sets of questions which is why the results between them are so different, you tried to show an example of where they are the same questions and it simply wasn't the case..

It doesn't take an idiot to work out that if you ask different questions, you will get different answers, I can't for the life of me understand why someone of your intelligence is struggling to.

But just to confirm.. I ask again.. is it just the PL poll that is biased in your opinion?

 

[davek]

Who said it was the polar opposite? Stop making things up, I am saying they are completely different not the polar opposite, your saying they are the same except the PL one is biased.

I am pretty sure you understood what AF was saying about those seeking out a survey tend to do so with a certain objective, and I don't need to defend anything that I have said and I don't need to defend the objectivity of the survey.. you however are claiming that the PL one which seeks to find out which fans enjoyed their experience most is clearly biased, whilst you claim there is no bias in a poll that has a question:

*In your opinion, what is the biggest failing of the current board of directors?

* Kings Dock
* Lack of Investment
* Kirkby
* No Trophies

Asks questions about whether the board lies etc

Unless your now accepting that the SOS is biased as well as the PL poll which you have clearly taken a dislike to, I would have to say its not me presenting weak arguments, and its not me that needs to defend my position.

SOS poll is very anti the board
PL poll is not
Both asked completely different sets of questions which is why the results between them are so different, you tried to show an example of where they are the same questions and it simply wasn't the case..

It doesn't take an idiot to work out that if you ask different questions, you will get different answers, I can't for the life of me understand why someone of your intelligence is struggling to.

But just to confirm.. I ask again.. is it just the PL poll that is biased in your opinion?

I stated clearly and early in this exchange that 'in the main' the SOS questions were straight questions and not leading ones. I didn't say they all were. The point being that the majority of what they asked was consistent with the PL survey in looking to get at the conclusions arrived at by fans on the present position of the club and the hopes for its future. That's a claim that's uncontroversial. That's what I'm saying and I'm happy with my claim. It's cast iron.

You, on the other hand, have never addressed the compromised nature of the PL survey, even though on multiple occasions it's been put to you that it isn't the 'independent' (your description) straw in the wind attempt to gather fan responses that you portray it as. And despite your statement that you dont need to defend it, it's an important omission because you've been emphasising its neutrality as a means of characterising the fan survey as biased and somehow not being capable of the 'objectivity' of the PL in its role as an 'honest broker'.

In short: there are clear crossovers in the line of questioning of the two surveys; you've failed to address the question of the in-house nature of a survey conducted by the industry itself on behalf of one of its member companies. That last point is not too difficult to register and address. Why dont you have a go at it? After two days of dodging that issue it might be nice if you turned your attention to offering a defence of their 'independence and 'objectivity' .

 

[D410]

If you put the simple question, "Do you think Everton is a well run football club?" on here with a poll, with a fair and varied opinion group, I reckon you'd have about 24% say yes, 62% say no, and 14% opt for the obligatory cheese on toast option.

Seen the poll.....on the money fella....

 

[Ihaters]

I stated clearly and early in this exchange that 'in the main' the SOS questions were straight questions and not leading ones. I didn't say they all were. The point being that the majority of what they asked was consistent with the PL survey in looking to get at the conclusions arrived at by fans on the present position of the club and the hopes for its future. That's a claim that's uncontroversial. That's what I'm saying and I'm happy with my claim. It's cast iron.

You, on the other hand, have never addressed the compromised nature of the PL survey, even though on multiple occasions it's been put to you that it isn't the 'independent' (your description) straw in the wind attempt to gather fan responses that you portray it as. And despite your statement that you dont need to defend it, it's an important omission because you've been emphasising its neutrality as a means of characterising the fan survey as biased and somehow not being capable of the 'objectivity' of the PL in its role as an 'honest broker'.

In short: there are clear crossovers in the line of questioning of the two surveys; you've failed to address the question of the in-house nature of a survey conducted by the industry itself on behalf of one of its member companies. That last point is not too difficult to register and address. Why dont you have a go at it? After two days of dodging that issue it might be nice if you turned your attention to offering a defence of their 'independence and 'objectivity' .

You said.... "I think in the main the SOS questions are value free and can be compared with the wording of the PL survey on satisfaction levels. "

You then argue that the PL survey is biased, now this contradicts the above..

Either the questions are different, or they are both biased in which case your value free comment is wrong.

Now it only takes a minute of reading the poll to realise that there is actually no question in the SOS poll that is the same or trying to get the same result as the PL poll except for the season ticket one.

You then go on to express your confusion over the disparity in figures between the two polls... I can explain to you quite easily that they are different sets of numbers.... because they are different questions.

Now I would suggest whilst both are biased, only one is biased towards the board, and the other isn't biased against or for any particular club, just the PL brand.

My statement stands true that the reason the results are different is because the SOS one clearly has an anti board agenda whereas the PL one doesn't, your statement that the SOS one is 'value free' is clearly one that doesn't hold up no matter how much you claim otherwise.

 

[davek]

You said.... "I think in the main the SOS questions are value free and can be compared with the wording of the PL survey on satisfaction levels. "

You then argue that the PL survey is biased, now this contradicts the above..

Either the questions are different, or they are both biased in which case your value free comment is wrong.

No, I've been stressing that the distinction you make between one survey being 'more objective' than the other doesn't hold weight - and I've underlined why. There's no contradiction in what I've said. The questions of both 'in the main' are value-free and using neutral language...it's the framing that gives them BOTH their opposing perspectives. Again, I've underlined why on that score too.

Now it only takes a minute of reading the poll to realise that there is actually no question in the SOS poll that is the same or trying to get the same result as the PL poll except for the season ticket one.

But I've given you those examples twice now. If you cant see the 'sameness' about them you're reading what you want to see rather than what's there.

Now I would suggest whilst both are biased, only one is biased towards the board, and the other isn't biased against or for any particular club, just the PL brand.

But you said the PL survey was 'independent' and 'objective' earlier, now you concede they're not! Never mind, at least you've addressed that issue at last and you got to the right conclusion about them in the end!

 

[Librarian]

It's extremely difficult to construct and execute a good survey. You can't do so on a forum where discussion is part of the process and over time a certain group think takes hold. There can be a certain social likemindedness. Opinion has to be independent.

Equally people who have signed up to receive information and promotions from the club can't be representative.

I wouldn't have a problem with the sample size of 2,000 so long as it is representative. To do than you would first need a demographic survey of Evertonians and you might even need to assign a weightlessness to the different categories of supporter.

Essentially you need Independence, Diversity, Decentralisation and Aggregation

 

[Sozzled]

I don't think we are as badly run as other clubs. So for that reason I'm going to say we are run fairly well. We might not be successful on the pitch or off it but there's teams on a lot worse positions than us.

We have some fairly valuable players that could wipe our debt.

 

[Ratkiller]

I don't think we are as badly run as other clubs. So for that reason I'm going to say we are run fairly well. We might not be successful on the pitch or off it but there's teams on a lot worse positions than us.

We have some fairly valuable players that could wipe our debt.

But surely that would depend on who you compare us against. Compared to Blackburn yes. Compared to our peers at the start of the premier league no.

And selling your most valuable players could turn out to be disastrous if the manager doesn't replace them adequately. Something moyes has been very effective at so far.

For me moyes covers up how badly we are run.

 

[Ihaters]

No, I've been stressing that the distinction you make between one survey being 'more objective' than the other doesn't hold weight - and I've underlined why. There's no contradiction in what I've said. The questions of both 'in the main' are value-free and using neutral language...it's the framing that gives them BOTH their opposing perspectives. Again, I've underlined why on that score too.

Right so neither are biased, why argue that one is, plenty of mention of the bias of the PL poll from you isn't there? Glad we finally got there etc..


But I've given you those examples twice now. If you cant see the 'sameness' about them you're reading what you want to see rather than what's there.

You gave the example once, I showed you how your example was rubbish by answering all four questions.. each of which answered the question, each was a very different response, you can spin that how you want to but its a fact, the questions are not the same nor do they yield the same results.

But you said the PL survey was 'independent' and 'objective' earlier, now you concede they're not! Never mind, at least you've addressed that issue at last and you got to the right conclusion about them in the end!

That's not true of course, besides you claim they are open, then claim they are subjective, then claim they are the same, then claim its the framing that makes them subjective, then admit they are different, that some are leading from one poll but on the whole the polls are the same, that PL one isn't open etc etc... All I want to know is this...

Do you think the bias polls are
1. PL
2 SOS
3. Neither
4. Both

You'll no doubt not tell me your answer, but once again reiterate how you've told me whilst not telling me and follow it up with some crass sarcasm and yell of victory when in fact you simply havn't answered the question.

Let me point out my stance... once again.

The reason there is such a massive discrepency in the results are:

The questions
The bias

Which I said to Artetafan, which you've argued against with me since. .. You simply have it down as suspicious and convenient that it was hosted on the OS if I remember rightly.
Its not.. its inevitable and if you stopped trying to spin and stood still to look for a second you may see it too, THE QUESTIONS ARE DIFFERENT.. THE RESULTS ARE THEREFORE DIFFERENT.
Still keep trying to undermine my argument with petty sarcasm and cries of victory over nothing at all, and ignore the fact that pretty much every question is different, not the majority of what was asked as you claim, that the objective is different, that the fan base is asked about the club/the board dependent on the poll and that your opinion that the result is different because its on the OS is simply wrong.

......

 

[D410]

Who gives a S**T, let,s just get the leech out so we can move forward.