Current Affairs 2017 General Election

[ToffeeTim]

I don't think either of you are recognise how a lot of people are affected.

Someone posted a list of metrics above.

Prospects of decently paid jobs and housing for younger people are massively less

I don't agree with what was posted and those metrics. Of course we can improve things and by some margin in some cases. But to suggest all those metrics were in a horrific state, and the worst we've ever seen is hysterical. It's not like they were any better under labour?

 

[JonS]

As hard as it is to believe, yes. Many of the diseases that killed millions are no longer with us. Even things like AIDS is no longer the death sentence it was.

Likewise with pollution. It wasn't that long ago that pea soup'ers would kill hundreds in London. Most polluting entities (cars, planes, factories etc.) are significantly cleaner than they were a generation ago. Of course there is still a lot that can be done, but lets not kid ourselves that both progress has not been made, or that there was some mythical golden age where these things were wonderful.

It's good to be reminded about what has improved. We should be grateful for that

 

[JonS]

I don't agree with what was posted and those metrics. Of course we can improve things and by some margin in some cases. But to suggest all those metrics were in a horrific state, and the worst we've ever seen is hysterical. It's not like they were any better under labour?

Agreed though I still think you are missing what is happening for an increasing number of the population (not just in this country but US, France and others) and if you or governments don't recognise it the voters will certainly remind them

 

[orchard]

This isn't really the place to argue against the naive progressivism position Bruce, but i'll think you'll find air pollution quite damaging and lots of other pollution and destruction of our environment besides. There are also lots of diseases threatening the 'system', MRSA and its ilk, TB in London and zoonotic TB endemic in the countryside, Salmonella and AI taken for granted and threatening intensive agricultural systems. Add to this the waning of anti-biotics through industrial usage.

As hard as it is to believe, yes. Many of the diseases that killed millions are no longer with us. Even things like AIDS is no longer the death sentence it was.

Likewise with pollution. It wasn't that long ago that pea soup'ers would kill hundreds in London. Most polluting entities (cars, planes, factories etc.) are significantly cleaner than they were a generation ago. Of course there is still a lot that can be done, but lets not kid ourselves that both progress has not been made, or that there was some mythical golden age where these things were wonderful.

As hard as it is to believe, yes. Many of the diseases that killed millions are no longer with us. Even things like AIDS is no longer the death sentence it was.

Likewise with pollution. It wasn't that long ago that pea soup'ers would kill hundreds in London. Most polluting entities (cars, planes, factories etc.) are significantly cleaner than they were a generation ago. Of course there is still a lot that can be done, but lets not kid ourselves that both progress has not been made, or that there was some mythical golden age where these things were wonderful.

 

[evilwebby]

You mean rich people?

The other great myth that socialist keep pedalling is that all Tories are rich.

 

[evilwebby]

unbelievable lad ....you dont give a toss about what the tories are doing to the disabled, elderly, people who are struggling to keep their heads above the poverty line..patronising twunt you

It's this attitude of "everyone who doesn't agree with me is a four-letter expletative" that moderate conservatives just don't even bother to engage in debate and do their talking in the voting booth. You haven't lost the argument - you never even bothered to put one forward.

 

[billytoffee]

The stark reality of the negative effect of Corbyn at the head of the Labour Party was brought home to me last night when Mrs Toffee got off the phone to her arl fella ! A previously die hard Labour man, a retired Miner who fought at the battle of Orgreave, a pensioner now living alone in a council house, who for the first time in his life will not be voting Labour - solely because he cant stand Corbyn.

 

[evilwebby]

Not quite, it was a parliamentary representative of the trade union movement. That was its remit.

Socialism isn't about taking possession of your home or car, it's to do with everyone having the opportunity of a home or car without having an interest raking loan to do so, or being beholding to market forces and insecurity and fear for years and years.
It is about considering others less fortunate and contributing to society for the benefit of all, something that corporatism refuses to do with any conviction despite being such a huge drain on resources. Clause 4 was an aim in regards to societal infrastructure, rail, health, comunications, education, the fabric of the land, now in the ownership of hedge funds, speculators and megalomaniacs.

I do think your referencing socialism as portrayed by Tebbit, Duncan Smith and other nutjob right wing ideologues...

I'm referring to the economic definition of socialism as Marx defined it, and which my impression of how Corbyn idealogically tilts; State ownership of the means of production (see the old Clause 4). Never mind your just house, your ass belongs to the State. I want improved standards of living for everyone (who doesn't?) but a socialist economic doctrine is always self destructive. Economic growth must underpin all social programmes. There is a reason why the average Brit has a better standard of living than Venezuela or North Korea, because we have better embraced capitalism and rejected socialism.

This is not just a nutjob Tebbit/IDS definition of socialism - these places in the world actually exist. Corbyn actually tweeted:

"Thanks Hugo Chavez for showing that the poor matter and wealth can be shared. He made massive contributions to Venezuela & a very wide world"

Ask yourself if economically you want this country to be more like Venuzela or less like Venuzela.

 

[JonS]

I'm referring to the economic definition of socialism as Marx defined it, and which my impression of how Corbyn idealogically tilts; State ownership of the means of production (see the old Clause 4). Never mind your just house, your ass belongs to the State. I want improved standards of living for everyone (who doesn't?) but a socialist economic doctrine is always self destructive. Economic growth must underpin all social programmes. There is a reason why the average Brit has a better standard of living than Venezuela or North Korea, because we have better embraced capitalism and rejected socialism.

This is not just a nutjob Tebbit/IDS definition of socialism - these places in the world actually exist. Corbyn actually tweeted:

"Thanks Hugo Chavez for showing that the poor matter and wealth can be shared. He made massive contributions to Venezuela & a very wide world"

Ask yourself if economically you want this country to be more like Venuzela or less like Venuzela.

I don't know much about Venezuela but I'd rather our health care and education be more like Cuba

 

[peteblue]

You could be right Bruce and things may adjust but I cant see it. The younger generation have the lowest prospects I have known in my lifetime and although some will be skilled or lucky enough to get more highly paid jobs and afford to buy a house a greater number won't.

This is why IMO a massive rethink is needed. For me capitalism in its current incarnation is not working for an increasing number of people.

Why do you think the younger generations have the lowest prospects ? Unemployment is low, the country is booming, housing costs are of a similar proportion to wages as when I bought my first house and the world is more open to immigrant workers thereby offering even more opportunity. I'd love an explanation of why you think it's tougher than for previous generations.......

 

[JonS]

Why do you think the younger generations have the lowest prospects ? Unemployment is low, the country is booming, housing costs are of a similar proportion to wages as when I bought my first house and the world is more open to immigrant workers thereby offering even more opportunity. I'd love an explanation of why you think it's tougher than for previous generations.......

I cant speak for you Pete but most of my generation have had fairly secure jobs at a reasonable pay level and been able to afford our own homes. I don't see that happening with the current generation.

 

[peteblue]

I don't know much about Venezuela but I'd rather our health care and education be more like Cuba

Dear gods and little fishes. Then read up about Venezuela. A country with the highest oil reserves on the planet, run in the most abject socialist manner possible. If you would really like the UK to resemble Cuba then you are a masochist.......

 

[peteblue]

I cant speak for you Pete but most of my generation have had fairly secure jobs at a reasonable pay level and been able to afford our own homes. I don't see that happening with the current generation.

I hear this, but I'm at a loss as to understand why people believe this to be......

 

[JonS]

I hear this, but I'm at a loss as to understand why people believe this to be......

In the old days if you were a gardener or a cleaner working for the council you would have had a solid council wage and council terms and conditions. Now you would be contracted out and on minimum wage with little security.

And some jobs are even worse with zero hours or sweatshop conditions (Amazon, JD Sports, Sports Direct all featured as so in recent documentaries)

 

[Joel H]

I don't know much about Venezuela but I'd rather our health care and education be more like Cuba

The fact is that Cuba tries to restrict as many of its doctors and health care workers leaving as possible, it relies on this to keep its healthcare running, imagine if we tried to pay our doctors similar to theirs but not restrict movement. People would simply take the training and then move to a higher paying country, you also have to take into account that they have a doctor per 170 residents which would see the NHS prices soar. The Cuban model is not a standard that we can follow.