Current Affairs 2017 General Election

[bring the ghost on]

No party can punish the poor and survive.

Are you serious? It's not a matter of opinion that the Tories have punished the poor for the entirety of the party's existence, it's a matter of fact. You don't get to put Ian Duncan Smith in charge of benefits and claim you're looking out for the little man.

The Tories represent the wealthy and privileged, first and foremost. Of course, they understand that to achieve electoral success they need to appeal to middle England, but that doesn't mean they care about them, it means they adopt UKIP style rhetoric about cutting immigration, etc.

The party is historically remarkably pragmatic and electoral very successful but certainly has done next to nothing for social mobility.

 

[ToffeeTim]

People just need to get into their heads the fact that this generation, my generation, are going to be the first in a long time who will be worse off than their parents.

We can't just magically fashion money from nowhere. We either decide to try and fund our much bigger older populations pensions, and fund the health needs of older folk, or we keep pumping money into all the other things and ignore them. There's no way to meet the needs of our changing demographics without taking money from elsewhere. Cuts are not a savage act from a nasty government aimed at causing suffering. They are inevitable.

I don't think the current labour party understand that our welfare system was designed on the premise that most died before 65, and of those that didn't, most were dead within 10 years. Spending hasn't even been cut. It's just that the demographics and need for funding are rising at a higher level, which is unsustainable.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Record number of children in poverty
Record number of homeless
Record number using foodbanks
Record number claiming in work benefit
Record number on 0 hours contracts
Record number of suicides among claimants
Record amount of national debt
All in it together

We had the biggest recession in nearly 100 years. That's not excusing certain policies (and I won't be voting Conservative), but it's like some folk think this recession was a piddling event. Compared to the aftermath of the Depression, most countries in the West have done remarkably well imo.

 

[robbo1957]

I'm not normally a fence sitter but at the moment I don't want to vote for the tories, and probably won't, but I don't see any alternatives. I like Corbyn and some of his beliefs but I can't see him if he gets in having the full support of the party who had many years in power but had tory leadership values.

I'll wait and see how they all perform and make my mind up closer to the day.

 

[JonS]

People just need to get into their heads the fact that this generation, my generation, are going to be the first in a long time who will be worse off than their parents.

We can't just magically fashion money from nowhere. We either decide to try and fund our much bigger older populations pensions, and fund the health needs of older folk, or we keep pumping money into all the other things and ignore them. There's no way to meet the needs of our changing demographics without taking money from elsewhere. Cuts are not a savage act from a nasty government aimed at causing suffering. They are inevitable.

I don't think the current labour party understand that our welfare system was designed on the premise that most died before 65, and of those that didn't, most were dead within 10 years. Spending hasn't even been cut. It's just that the demographics and need for funding are rising at a higher level, which is unsustainable.

I agree with much of what you say and that the funding under our present way of doing things is unsustainable (which is why a middle of the road Labour party will at best be a sticking plaster only).

I don't agree that it isn't possible to fund things though. It would need complete and radical change of politicoeconomic systems but if we agree on what our goals and priorities need to be and then work from there on what we need to do to achieve them I believe it is highly possible

 

[JonS]

We had the biggest recession in nearly 100 years. That's not excusing certain policies (and I won't be voting Conservative), but it's like some folk think this recession was a piddling event. Compared to the aftermath of the Depression, most countries in the West have done remarkably well imo.

You could be right Bruce and things may adjust but I cant see it. The younger generation have the lowest prospects I have known in my lifetime and although some will be skilled or lucky enough to get more highly paid jobs and afford to buy a house a greater number won't.

This is why IMO a massive rethink is needed. For me capitalism in its current incarnation is not working for an increasing number of people.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I agree with much of what you say and that the funding under our present way of doing things is unsustainable (which is why a middle of the road Labour party will at best be a sticking plaster only).

I don't agree that it isn't possible to fund things though. It would need complete and radical change of politicoeconomic systems but if we agree on what our goals and priorities need to be and then work from there on what we need to do to achieve them I believe it is highly possible

I think a good start would be to denounce the idea that we're in some kind of Sim City world. There's absolutely no evidence at all that planned economies work, and it's hubris to believe they ever can.

 

[Mrk]

You could be right Bruce and things may adjust but I cant see it. The younger generation have the lowest prospects I have known in my lifetime and although some will be skilled or lucky enough to get more highly paid jobs and afford to buy a house a greater number won't.

This is why IMO a massive rethink is needed. For me capitalism in its current incarnation is not working for an increasing number of people.

To be fair, this has a lot less to do with Capitalism and a lot more to do with an absurd planning system and ridiculous hosing polices. Nimbyism really does have a lot to answer for.

 

[ToffeeTim]

You could be right Bruce and things may adjust but I cant see it. The younger generation have the lowest prospects I have known in my lifetime and although some will be skilled or lucky enough to get more highly paid jobs and afford to buy a house a greater number won't.

This is why IMO a massive rethink is needed. For me capitalism in its current incarnation is not working for an increasing number of people.

It's nothing something for us younger ones to be moaning about tho. It's not that bad. A bit of perspective is needed. Is it fair to fund our old people? Yes. Is it fair that I pay some money back if I earn a good wage due to my university degree? Of course, I should pay for it not taxpayers who didn't even attend uni. Are we in abject poverty? No of course not.

It frustrates me when people equate falling standards with poverty. It's utter nonsense and this country is privileged.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You could be right Bruce and things may adjust but I cant see it. The younger generation have the lowest prospects I have known in my lifetime and although some will be skilled or lucky enough to get more highly paid jobs and afford to buy a house a greater number won't.

This is why IMO a massive rethink is needed. For me capitalism in its current incarnation is not working for an increasing number of people.

Again though, on what do you base this? Upon pretty much any metric you care to mention, whether it's life expectancy, education levels, gender equality, disease eradication, the environment and so on, things are better now than they've been in most cases ever. There's a risk whenever elections come around that an incredibly bleak picture is painted because opposition parties have to paint incumbents as god awful, when the reality is often very different.

 

[JonS]

I think a good start would be to denounce the idea that we're in some kind of Sim City world. There's absolutely no evidence at all that planned economies work, and it's hubris to believe they ever can.

In many ways I agree with that. But what do you do about the large corporations and conglomerates putting the smaller businesses out of business and getting governments on their side by dubious means?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

In many ways I agree with that. But what do you do about the large corporations and conglomerates putting the smaller businesses out of business and getting governments on their side by dubious means?

To be fair, that is in the hands of those that regulate the markets. They can deny lobbying if they so wish. They can ensure that markets remain fair and equitable if they wish. The government is the referee, so it's down to the referee to ensure they do the job correctly.

 

[JonS]

It's nothing something for us younger ones to be moaning about tho. It's not that bad. A bit of perspective is needed. Is it fair to fund our old people? Yes. Is it fair that I pay some money back if I earn a good wage due to my university degree? Of course, I should pay for it not taxpayers who didn't even attend uni. Are we in abject poverty? No of course not.

It frustrates me when people equate falling standards with poverty. It's utter nonsense and this country is privileged.

Again though, on what do you base this? Upon pretty much any metric you care to mention, whether it's life expectancy, education levels, gender equality, disease eradication, the environment and so on, things are better now than they've been in most cases ever. There's a risk whenever elections come around that an incredibly bleak picture is painted because opposition parties have to paint incumbents as god awful, when the reality is often very different.

I don't think either of you are recognise how a lot of people are affected.

Someone posted a list of metrics above.

Prospects of decently paid jobs and housing for younger people are massively less

 

[orchard]

Again though, on what do you base this? Upon pretty much any metric you care to mention, whether it's life
expectancy, education levels, gender
equality, disease eradication, the environment and so on, things are better now than they've been in most cases ever. There's a risk whenever elections come around that
an incredibly bleak picture is painted because opposition parties have to paint incumbents as god awful, when the reality is often very different.

Seriously Bruce??

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Seriously Bruce??

As hard as it is to believe, yes. Many of the diseases that killed millions are no longer with us. Even things like AIDS is no longer the death sentence it was.

Likewise with pollution. It wasn't that long ago that pea soup'ers would kill hundreds in London. Most polluting entities (cars, planes, factories etc.) are significantly cleaner than they were a generation ago. Of course there is still a lot that can be done, but lets not kid ourselves that both progress has not been made, or that there was some mythical golden age where these things were wonderful.