Young EFC Players Out On Loan 17-18

[Bruce Wayne]

Can’t think of any team outside say Barcelona that does this.

And unfortunately, the evidence from our recent history suggests that we struggle to keep hold of young players when they get to the kind of level where we can push on. We've had no problem finding good young players, whether it's Stones from the lower leagues, Lukaku from Chelsea reserves, Barkley from our own youth team or even the likes of Mustafi and Dier from abroad. Our problem has been keeping hold of them. Unless we actually make the breakthrough with these lads, history suggests we won't keep them, and Moshiri unfortunately hasn't changed that (yet). I'm sadly not convinced that we can do that if Davies, DCL, Kenny, Lookman et al turn out to be worldies.

 

[Nymzee]

And unfortunately, the evidence from our recent history suggests that we struggle to keep hold of young players when they get to the kind of level where we can push on. We've had no problem finding good young players, whether it's Stones from the lower leagues, Lukaku from Chelsea reserves, Barkley from our own youth team or even the likes of Mustafi and Dier from abroad. Our problem has been keeping hold of them. Unless we actually make the breakthrough with these lads, history suggests we won't keep them, and Moshiri unfortunately hasn't changed that (yet). I'm sadly not convinced that we can do that if Davies, DCL, Kenny, Lookman et al turn out to be worldies.

I think the dream of many is to have a full academy starting XI but it just isn’t happening. We have far more around the first team than most other clubs so we should be thankful for that.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think the dream of many is to have a full academy starting XI but it just isn’t happening. We have far more around the first team than most other clubs so we should be thankful for that.

There was a breakdown of this posted somewhere before Christmas. General gist was that we had lots of youngsters, a fair chunk of over 30's and not many in the 'prime' years.

 

[mightymoyes]

There was a breakdown of this posted somewhere before Christmas. General gist was that we had lots of youngsters, a fair chunk of over 30's and not many in the 'prime' years.

and the few 'prime' ones were bellends with seemingly bad attitude like mirallas and schederlin

 

[jceverton]

Is that what's happening though? We've got Kenny, Holgate, Davies, Lookman and DCL getting regular game time, and Baningime on the fringes. How many young players do we think should be in the side really?

People love to say 'he couldn't do any worse' but the truth is they always can can't they? One of the players everyone loves to say is underperforming and should be dropped is Tom Davies - who in normal circumstances would be one of the lads we were saying should be getting a chance. DCL is also widely accepted as not being good enough yet, so why would some other 20 year old who the coaches don't rate as highly do any better? In the past it's been Hibbert, Osman, Anichebe etc who've got the brunt of fan frustration as 'it's an old boys network' and 'they wouldn't get a sniff if they weren't local lads'. It's all very well saying put a load of kids in and see how they do, until they reach 21 and people start to realise that they're not actually the world class performers they'd wanted them to be and we want them out and replacing with another 18 year old who 'can't be any worse'.

Did you read my post mate? Because it wasn’t about just playing a few young players here and there without any overall strategy.

 

[Lanolin]

Did you read my post mate? Because it wasn’t about just playing a few young players here and there without any overall strategy.

Yes I understand your point, do you understand mine?

It's a commonly repeated fallacy that young players will just magically get better if you play them. They won't. All players have a ceiling, and no matter how much we want them to, or how much exposure we give them, or how much a strategy we have, they will only perform to the level that they're capable of. To compete at the top end of the PL, you need your team to be filled with internationals, and to have a smattering of players of an even higher level than that. The harsh truth of the matter is that many of the highly rated youngsters we have will never reach that level. That's why I gave the examples that I did - the players who have come through the ranks and made a lot of appearances for us have very often been seen as the team's weakest links, because they're just not quite out of the top drawer.

As I said in the previous response, Tom Davies is the perfect example of the flaws in your plan - he's a talented young lad who has been woefully out of form this season, to the point that people don't want him in the team anymore. You were advocating only buying players in positions where we didn't already have quality youngsters, so if we had done that Tom would be playing every game, or would be being replaced by another junior player because the 'mediocre established players' wouldn't be here. Does that seem like a good idea to you? It doesn't to me. While Schneiderlin and McCarthy might be mediocre when compared to the Pogbas, Gundogans and Kantes of the world, I would put a whole lot of money on it that they would stand out at League One level a lot more than Ryan Ledson and John Lundstram do, and those are the type of players that you would be advocating playing an important role for the club under that model.

In my opinion the general model that we have followed for years is fine - have a good academy which produces valuable squad members and the occasional gem, bring in good young players from elsewhere with a view to the long term, and buy established quality whenever and wherever possible. We're clearly trying to do that at the moment, the money we've spent on players under 23 makes that blindingly obvious, but unfortunately the quality of the senior players we've signed hasn't been good enough. There's nothing wrong with the model we've got in place, it's the implementation of it that's the issue.

 

[Zatara]

Yes I understand your point, do you understand mine?

It's a commonly repeated fallacy that young players will just magically get better if you play them. They won't. All players have a ceiling, and no matter how much we want them to, or how much exposure we give them, or how much a strategy we have, they will only perform to the level that they're capable of. To compete at the top end of the PL, you need your team to be filled with internationals, and to have a smattering of players of an even higher level than that. The harsh truth of the matter is that many of the highly rated youngsters we have will never reach that level. That's why I gave the examples that I did - the players who have come through the ranks and made a lot of appearances for us have very often been seen as the team's weakest links, because they're just not quite out of the top drawer.

As I said in the previous response, Tom Davies is the perfect example of the flaws in your plan - he's a talented young lad who has been woefully out of form this season, to the point that people don't want him in the team anymore. You were advocating only buying players in positions where we didn't already have quality youngsters, so if we had done that Tom would be playing every game, or would be being replaced by another junior player because the 'mediocre established players' wouldn't be here. Does that seem like a good idea to you? It doesn't to me. While Schneiderlin and McCarthy might be mediocre when compared to the Pogbas, Gundogans and Kantes of the world, I would put a whole lot of money on it that they would stand out at League One level a lot more than Ryan Ledson and John Lundstram do, and those are the type of players that you would be advocating playing an important role for the club under that model.

In my opinion the general model that we have followed for years is fine - have a good academy which produces valuable squad members and the occasional gem, bring in good young players from elsewhere with a view to the long term, and buy established quality whenever and wherever possible. We're clearly trying to do that at the moment, the money we've spent on players under 23 makes that blindingly obvious, but unfortunately the quality of the senior players we've signed hasn't been good enough. There's nothing wrong with the model we've got in place, it's the implementation of it that's the issue.

How would you suggest these young players 'reach their ceiling' if they aren't getting regular games?

Taking the Holgate example, last season a lot of people slated him (cant play RB and only good on the right of a back three) but he learnt and gained experience and then was coached to improve once those weaknesses were highlighted.

Now he is our best centre back.

For Vlasic, Lookman and others how do you suggest they improve without games?

 

[jceverton]

How would you suggest these young players 'reach their ceiling' if they aren't getting regular games?

Taking the Holgate example, last season a lot of people slated him (cant play RB and only good on the right of a back three) but he learnt and gained experience and then was coached to improve once those weaknesses were highlighted.

Now he is our best centre back.

For Vlasic, Lookman and others how do you suggest they improve without games?

Exactly, they can’t reach their full potential unless they are played at a level to push them to improve.

 

[the golden visionary]

Dowell just scored

 

[Barnfred 55]

Dowell just scored for Forest. 10th of the season

 

[atrottel]

Championship
Bolton Wanderers - Antonee Robinson played full match in 1-1 home draw with Ipswich Town

OS Match Report

Twitter stuff
Gary Madine heads wide from @Antonee_Jedi's deep cross. (44)
GOOOAAALLL!!! The goal machine has done it again! Gary Madine slides in at the far post to convert @velajosh25's flick-on from @Antonee_Jedi's cross! Get in! (53)

Fan comments
"Oh and credit McCarthy for the way they targeted robinson"
"Agree that they were bright enough to target Robinson & i'd guess that was why Morais came on... to give Antokneee more help."
"Robinson and Dervite did well."

Ipswich Town - Callum Connolly started and was substituted in the 94th minute in the same match

OS Match Report
"Alnwick saved from McGoldrick after the Republic of Ireland international had got behind the home defence, Derik Osede seeing a header deflected wide by Callum Connolly in response."

Twitter stuff
"2' Sammy Ameobi is down receiving treatment after a challenge with Callum Connolly. Early concern for the Bolton man"

No particular fan comments about him.

Leeds United - Matthew Pennington started on the bench and came on in the 43rd minute of a 3-4 home defeat to Millwall

OS Match Report

Twitter stuff
75' Pennington wins Leeds a free-kick, midway into the Millwall half on the right 3-2

Fan comment
"Penny-7. Did well, if no cb is signed then deserves a chance."

Sunderland - Tyias Browning played full match and was booked in 1-0 home win against Hull City

OS Match Report
"After Oviedo’s free-kick skimmed the roof of the net, Ty Browning did well to clear Evandro’s low cross before Larsson’s dipping effort whistled past the post"

Twitter stuff
5' Early chance for #SAFC as Browning picks out Ovideo with a pass but his shot is diverted wide for a corner. Honeyman's resulting corner is cleared by Hull.

Nottingham Forest - Kieran Dowell started, scored and was substituted in the 83rd minute of a 2-0 away win at table-topping Wolverhampton Wanderers

OS Match Report
"On 32 minutes a teasing delivery from a free kick by Dowell almost found the opener, with his whipped cross evading everyone bar Wolves wing back Matt Doherty, as the ball hit him and deflected just past the near post."
"But The Reds did gain the advantage from the resulting corner. Osborn's delivery was only half-cleared to the edge of the box for Dowell who hit a shot first time and found its way into the net via a deflection."

Twitter stuff
32' Wolves 0-0 #NFFC: Kieran Dowell's free-kick from the right is almost deflected into his own net by Matt Doherty but it drifts just wide.
38' Wolves 0-0 #NFFC: Wolves captain Conor Coady is booked for a foul on Kieran Dowell just outside the home side's penalty area.
40' Wolves 0-1 #NFFC: Kieran Dowell's deflected strike leaves John Ruddy wrong-footed and puts Forest in front.
50' Wolves 0-2 #NFFC: Danny Fox glances on a header from Kieran Dowell's free-kick but Ruddy gets up to tip it over the crossbar.

Fan comment
"Dowell is really, really good."

Brendan Galloway was an unused sub.
Harry Charsley and Joe Williams (suspension) were not in matchday squads.

 

[aazak]

Championship
Bolton Wanderers - Antonee Robinson played full match in 1-1 home draw with Ipswich Town

OS Match Report

Twitter stuff
Gary Madine heads wide from @Antonee_Jedi's deep cross. (44)
GOOOAAALLL!!! The goal machine has done it again! Gary Madine slides in at the far post to convert @velajosh25's flick-on from @Antonee_Jedi's cross! Get in! (53)

Fan comments
"Oh and credit McCarthy for the way they targeted robinson"
"Agree that they were bright enough to target Robinson & i'd guess that was why Morais came on... to give Antokneee more help."
"Robinson and Dervite did well."

Ipswich Town - Callum Connolly started and was substituted in the 94th minute in the same match

OS Match Report
"Alnwick saved from McGoldrick after the Republic of Ireland international had got behind the home defence, Derik Osede seeing a header deflected wide by Callum Connolly in response."

Twitter stuff
"2' Sammy Ameobi is down receiving treatment after a challenge with Callum Connolly. Early concern for the Bolton man"

No particular fan comments about him.

Leeds United - Matthew Pennington started on the bench and came on in the 43rd minute of a 3-4 home defeat to Millwall

OS Match Report

Twitter stuff
75' Pennington wins Leeds a free-kick, midway into the Millwall half on the right 3-2

Fan comment
"Penny-7. Did well, if no cb is signed then deserves a chance."

Sunderland - Tyias Browning played full match and was booked in 1-0 home win against Hull City

OS Match Report
"After Oviedo’s free-kick skimmed the roof of the net, Ty Browning did well to clear Evandro’s low cross before Larsson’s dipping effort whistled past the post"

Twitter stuff
5' Early chance for #SAFC as Browning picks out Ovideo with a pass but his shot is diverted wide for a corner. Honeyman's resulting corner is cleared by Hull.

Nottingham Forest - Kieran Dowell started, scored and was substituted in the 83rd minute of a 2-0 away win at table-topping Wolverhampton Wanderers

OS Match Report
"On 32 minutes a teasing delivery from a free kick by Dowell almost found the opener, with his whipped cross evading everyone bar Wolves wing back Matt Doherty, as the ball hit him and deflected just past the near post."
"But The Reds did gain the advantage from the resulting corner. Osborn's delivery was only half-cleared to the edge of the box for Dowell who hit a shot first time and found its way into the net via a deflection."

Twitter stuff
32' Wolves 0-0 #NFFC: Kieran Dowell's free-kick from the right is almost deflected into his own net by Matt Doherty but it drifts just wide.
38' Wolves 0-0 #NFFC: Wolves captain Conor Coady is booked for a foul on Kieran Dowell just outside the home side's penalty area.
40' Wolves 0-1 #NFFC: Kieran Dowell's deflected strike leaves John Ruddy wrong-footed and puts Forest in front.
50' Wolves 0-2 #NFFC: Danny Fox glances on a header from Kieran Dowell's free-kick but Ruddy gets up to tip it over the crossbar.

Fan comment
"Dowell is really, really good."

Brendan Galloway was an unused sub.
Harry Charsley and Joe Williams (suspension) were not in matchday squads.

Thanks (as always) @atrottel

Interesting that Galloway was back in the squad - any one know if there's an injury crisis / squad flu or if he might be working his way back into the reckoning?

 

[PhilBr]

Can’t think of any team outside say Barcelona that does this.

Athletic Bilbao - regular top six side and participants in the Europa League.

 

[Nymzee]

Athletic Bilbao - regular top six side and participants in the Europa League.

That's a little different.

 

[NCLBlue]

Dowell developing a good amount of snide shushing the crowd celebration!

Well in la