Why do Evertonians expect success?

[steken1]

Just saying people using these teams as an example of what to aim for.

I don't think anyone does. They just use them as examples of sides that have done well in cup competitions or won them while being considered inferior to us over Moyes reign.

 

[micknick]

It was mate.

Moyes said it to press following game;

https://twitter.com/philmcnulty/status/310409196908728320

Fair enough- huge mistake in that case.

One game may be the watershed to something changing but I still wont slate a manager who completely changed the fortunes of my club.

 

[micknick]

I don't think anyone does. They just use them as examples of sides that have done well in cup competitions or won them while being considered inferior to us over Moyes reign.

They are inferior to us. They are languishing in the championship or below and we are sat in a Europa league place

 

[Brennan]

Sorry, i'm still in shock that we actually released a dvd because we won a few games at the start of a season.

What the actual [Poor language removed].

 

[Tubey]

Fair enough- huge mistake in that case.

One game may be the watershed to something changing but I still wont slate a manager who completely changed the fortunes of my club.

It's not one game, it's the culmination of everything. He bottles it every single time.

I'm glad you're happy with absolutely no end product from Moyes when it matters most, but I am certainly not, and I'm also disappointed at you labelling us as "relegation fodder", which is massive exaggeration. We haven't been relegated for a very long time (to put it mildly) and we weren't even in the relegation zone when Moyes took over.

Moyes didn't save us and he isn't bigger than the club. There's a massive rewrite of history from Moyes fans whenever people try to discuss his strengths and weaknesses. The truth is that all he has achieved in 11 years at the club is an improvement of five or six league places on average, all of that on the back of the massive Rooney and Lescott sales and reinvestment. Hardly the record of an "Everton great".

He'll be remembered as a failure and rightly so.

 

[Tubey]

Sorry, i'm still in shock that we actually released a dvd because we won a few games at the start of a season.

What the actual [Poor language removed].

No it's even worse than that - it was at the start of January, off the back of a terrible start to the season.

It's like a really bad prank photoshop that a Kopite has made - but it's actually true.

 

[runlikehell]

Sorry, i'm still in shock that we actually released a dvd because we won a few games at the start of a season.

What the actual [Poor language removed].

What would the great John Moores think?

 

[steken1]

They are inferior to us. They are languishing in the championship or below and we are sat in a Europa league place

They were also inferior to us when they were winning trophies and reaching finals. Where they are 3,5 or 10 years down the line is irrelevant. Your looking at it as if winning a trophy's a death sentence. There's no rational argument for that being the case.

So the argument that we couldn't have won anything in the past 11 years and we shouldn't expect to do well in cups is shown to be utter tripe.

Edit - show me how many sides who were better than us at the time have knocked us out of cup competitions, then have a look how many we've done the same to.

 

[micknick]

It's not one game, it's the culmination of everything. He bottles it every single time.

I'm glad you're happy with absolutely no end product from Moyes when it matters most, but I am certainly not, and I'm also disappointed at you labelling us as "relegation fodder", which is massive exaggeration. We haven't been relegated for a very long time (to put it mildly) and we weren't even in the relegation zone when Moyes took over.

Moyes didn't save us and he isn't bigger than the club. There's a massive rewrite of history from Moyes fans whenever people try to discuss his strengths and weaknesses. The truth is that all he has achieved in 11 years at the club is an improvement of five or six league places on average, all of that on the back of the massive Rooney and Lescott sales and reinvestment. Hardly the record of an "Everton great".

He'll be remembered as a failure and rightly so.

Oh my god, I thought you knew a bit.

We were season after season scraping to stay in the league. Moyes transformed that, that is a fact.

You in particular have slated his tactics, the same tactics he used to get us fourth with an average squad of players.

People have lauded our squad this season- the same squad Moyes has put together.

The thing we are missing is a bit of depth in quality, which money can bring.

If you think hes a failure so be it, I honestly think without him we would have been relegated a long time ago.

 

[micknick]

They were also inferior to us when they were winning trophies and reaching finals. Where they are 3,5 or 10 years down the line is irrelevant. Your looking at it as if winning a trophy's a death sentence. There's no rational argument for that being the case.

So the argument that we couldn't have won anything in the past 11 years and we shouldn't expect to do well in cups is shown to be utter tripe.

Edit - show me how many sides who were better than us at the time have knocked us out of cup competitions, then have a look how many we've done the same to.

Oh my god Im not saying that all. Im saying that they are hardly teams to be compared with- fluking a cup and then being found out and going into obscurity.

God this is frustrating today

 

[Tubey]

Whatever mate. Everton were never "relegation fodder" and it's exaggeration to suggest anything of the sort. We finished 16th the season before Moyes came and we were 17th when he took over. His biggest achievement was the 7th place finish in his first full season, but after that he nearly took us down himself and was completely rescued by the sale of Wayne Rooney, when he then had funds to improve the squad - which he did well.

So without the Rooney money (and later, the Lescott money) we'd have been relegated long ago. Always amazes me the way people airbrush the 17th place Moyes inspired finish in 03/04 out of history completely.

 

[steken1]

Oh my god Im not saying that all. Im saying that they are hardly teams to be compared with- fluking a cup and then being found out and going into obscurity.

God this is frustrating today

It's just as frustrating for me mate. If they're hardly sides to be compared with why shouldn't we expect some success?

They didn't fluke them cups either, they won them. Does your arguments no favours denigrating other sides achievements.

 

[Pomp]

Oh my god, I thought you knew a bit.

We were season after season scraping to stay in the league. Moyes transformed that, that is a fact.

You in particular have slated his tactics, the same tactics he used to get us fourth with an average squad of players.

People have lauded our squad this season- the same squad Moyes has put together.

The thing we are missing is a bit of depth in quality, which money can bring.

If you think hes a failure so be it, I honestly think without him we would have been relegated a long time ago.

We were underachieving before Moyes you are 100% right. Any manager taking a club over the size of Everton regardless of having 100m to spend or not should be getting us Top 6/8 on the basis of us being a big club and a big name and having a fantastic support ALONE. That's why the likes of Kendall, Smith, Walker and even Royle were sacked. We were underachieving.

The point, the likes of Tubey are making, is a very good one and though Moyes overall deserves respect for his hard work and commitment to the cause, hailing him as some messiah figure is just plain wrong. Yesterday was just sickening and if he couldn't get his team motivated for that, SERIOUS questions have to be asked about David Moyes. Home to Wigan ffs. Stating the obvious and saying it was an off day doesn't cut it.

 

[Hibbosculturedrightboot]

I think it is part of the irrationality of being a football fan. Most of the responses on here are reasoned and I wholeheartedly agree with Davek's assesment. However, I do see where EFC78 is going with his post - implicitly (and explicitly in some cases) there is an expectation that Everton SHOULD do well. Arguably this is because the club has a particular identity - a big club, one of the most successful in the country historically speaking, a grand old team, knowing your history etc. All of this is a heady stew which underpins and idea of being a big club and thus demanding success. As we know, being a footie fan becomes part of your idenity and the values and meanings we attach to the club (and what the club represents) shape how people see themselves. Arguably, fans hold an idealised view of the club and themselves. Thus, when Everton are playing badly, doing badly and making themselves (and their fans) look stupid it upsets people.

In short, Everton fans expect success because the projected club's image and mythology dictate the club should be successful. And plain old reality can be obscured when the emotions attached with having the dream shattered come into play...

Apologies if that post is rambling, it is as much a 'think aloud' piece as a reply. I.e. trying to work it through in my own head.

 

[tommye]

Hes brought it all on himself at the moment Mick.

You know my stance on Moyes.

But hes let himself down, hes let the Club down, but more importantly, hes let me down and when I say me, I mean the fans that give him 100% support.

I dont blame him for yesterday as such, he picked a strong team, CLEARLY the inclusion of Neville turned into an awful idea, but the players let us down yesterday. Anybody with eyes has seen that Osman and Neville is a League Two midfield, Osman is a terrible player, sure he looks good when we are on top, he scores some great goals and on the ball at times hes superb, but when the chips are down, he lacks the sleeves to roll up and Neville, whilst a good leader, has never been good enough to play CM in the Premiership. Sure in the past ive defended him, thats cos hes not always utterly terrible, but you put him with Osman in midfield and I bet most oppo Managers wet themselves.

Fellaini is a sulky narky [Poor language removed] as well and I dont think he relishes the AM postion anymore, it hasnt really been "working" for a few weeks now and the frustration is clearly showing in his play. But Moyes keeps it going cos it worked in August.

Jelavic looks a shadow of the player he was, he had that 1 snapshot that looked dangerous, but most of the time he looked like a dodgy Torres with big ears, he could barely trap a ball.

Even Baines - 9 was awful yesterday, when Leighton Baines plays like Stephen Warnock you know something isnt right.

Clearly this contract issue is playing heavily on some of the players, I honestly didnt think it would, but we have been awful for months now, sure, tiredness could be a factor, but some players have been "rested", banned, injured and im sorry but a week is plenty of time to re-charge batterys, even baring in mind a long Season.

The decision to bring in only Stones in January is quite possibly 1 of the worst things ive seen in the last 11 Years, other windows in the past we havent had money, so you can see why we havent made signings, but its clear we had money and it wasnt spent and now we reap what we sow.

Im not gonna point fingers and I understand the "dont spend for the sake of spending" arguement, but quite frankly David Moyes watches football 24 hours a day and im sure he has a very long list of players he feels would improve us, clearly the whole Fer thing was a major blow, but the January window cost us our Season.

Today I feel quite low, as im sure others do, its gonna take me some time to get over Yesterday.

I know I picked on a few players in this post, mainly Osman, im not blaming any 1 person, collectively Everton has failed, The Chairman, The Manager, The players and to some degree we as fans, yesterday was an FA Cup Quarter Final and we didnt show up, we barely even sang a song, yes its hard to motivate when you have no motivation, but we as fans, we should really have done better.

So im not gonna spend the next week defending Moyes, ripping Osman and pointing to our Net spend, im gonna sit in my dressing gown and drink bleach, whilst watching the everton season review 08 09 on repeat.

IMWT? NSNO?

Everton arent we and we are hurting.

best post I've read since yesterdays abomination