Who let Everton/Koeman down?

[Steve Wigan]

Couldn't agree more with a lot you have said. The identification of the players I don't think has been a problem, but it's disgraceful how witsel was allowed to dictate to us all summer in the hope he would sign. We should have set a timescale if he isn't willing to commit we move into our next target. Most of our targets seemed to have 'used' Everton's interest to enable them to sign enhanced contracts at the club or elsewhere. The lessons learnt from this window must ensure that the failings of this window are never repeated again.

Agree to a point about witsel but to say that most of our targets 'used' Evertons interest is not really accurate. Mata, Carvahllo, Strootman(?), Bahrini,Gabbiadini, and a few others were quoted in the press(whether true or not, who knows?) and as as I know none of them have moved, and the only (possible) improved contract might be Gabbiadinis. So basically the big name players we have gone after were not neccesarily looking for a move unless to a CL club. Having a lot to spend is ok as long as everyone else doesn't have a lot to spend,and we don't, even now, have the financial clout of City, United, Chelsea or Arsenal(who are reluctant to spend anyway).
I think Moshiris intentions are honest and honourable, but it has to be considered that he came from Arsenal, who hardly broke the bank on players while they were getting into the right financial situation to develop The Emirates.....maybe Moshiri if asked the direct hypothetical question....team or stadium first, would follow the Arsenal way to a new stadium as his first priority, because lets face it, that's were the big regular profit would be, and inevitably it would lead to more player investment. Players first makes the stadium harder to achieve, stadium first enables player purchase ?

 

[Bigmaclad]

I'm going to blame Darron Gibson

 

[Kev The Rat]

koeman on 7m a year will happily toe the line, despite being sabotaged in the window.

 

[Zatara]

You talk as though you are experienced in conducting football transfers. If you are Zat, then I hold my hand up and apologise for what follows.

1. You infer that professional football transfer transactions are exactly the same as normal business transactions. You may well be correct. I don't know, but I'd be absolutely amazed if they were.

2. You state that 10/10 players or agents would be prepared to meet with us to listen to our pitch. Again, you may be correct, but I would suggest that all agents would first look at our club, it's standing, history, recent success and whether we have European competition, before agreeing to meet up. Of the calibre of player we were after this window, I would imagine less than 5/10 would even bother. These guys are really busy and represent numerous footballers in addition to other sportsmen/women.

3. You have totally over simplified the negotiations process, stating that it is simply a case of agreeing financials with the agent and Koeman getting on the phone to the player telling him what a great guy he is. And if it doesn't go through it's obviously either his or Moshiri's fault. What world do you live in?. Most of our transfer targets have fallen down due to either

a) Selling club moving the goal posts (Kone, Brahimi, Gabbiadini)
b) Agent using us to get better deals for player (Arnautovic, Ghezzal)
c) Players wanting European football (Witzel, Perez, Sissoko)

Basically Morishi/Koeman couldn't do too much to affect those transfers.

You've made it quite clear over numerous posts that you don't rate either Moshiri or Koeman, and you are totally entitled to your view and your right to showcase on here. But this post is just a another fabrication to justify your views, with no facts to back it up, and that's where I think you cross the line sometimes.

Moshiri and koeman aren't going anywhere for some time, regardless of your opinion. I'm sure you'd make your life a lot easier if you got behind them and the team, at least for a while, and see how things go.

You can still claim the higher moral ground if things go apeshit!!

1-- No business deal is ever the same of course. However there must be a standard process which is followed. For me, this means clubs agree--agent agrees terms and then player speaks with manager.

Of course this can differ with feelers put out to agents and managers talking with players prior to terms being agreed.

The key for me is manager involvement.


2-- This can be achieved on the phone and these agents are not one man bands (like Raiola seems to be). Its pretty easy to get someone on the phone if youre in the same industry.

3-- Yes there may be plenty of factors which scupper deals. However its up to the negotiator on our side to know in advance how and why these deals could fall through.

When i do a deal i always have one eye out for them staying with their current structure or switching to what i am recommending or going with a 3rd party.

If i feel theres a possibility that a 3rd party undercuts me then i go as low as i feel comfortable with within a strict timeframe. If they may elect to stay with their current structure and negotiate a better deal i immediately bring this up and ask them if they feel valued having not been offered this in their deal originally.

Either way i have a timeframe.

If anything gets sticky i bring in an expert in my field to speak informally with the client...thats usually the push they need after ive done the groundwork.

So in this instance i would be Moshiri/Kenwright etc and the expert would be Koeman.

Clearly Moshiri is in charge of the process and Koeman is the closer.

4-- Ive no opinion on Moshiri. Theres not enough information for me to have an opinion other than hes extremely savvy with investments and is new to football (he never had a board seat or any internal role at arsenal).

Koeman has had a pretty poor career overall

A-- Took over Ajax and PSV when they were major favourites for titles and left both quickly when they soon tanked.

B-- Took over Valencia who were 3rd best in Spain and their form would have seen them relegated if he hadnt been sacked. Hated by fans and some top players filed lawsuits.

C--Benfica were favourites to retain their title and he took them down to 3rd in a 3 horse race...he was seen as a weirdo over there.

D--AZ sacked him within 6months.

E-- Brilliant for Feyenoord with NO MONEY l where he was forced to play young players who had fantastic pedigree.

F-- Took over from Poch and kept Saints where they were in the league (note ours and liverpools/chelseas nosedives) with Les Reed doing the player hiring with Koeman having some small role i guess (Reed also did the hiring under Poch as shown in a few articles).

Theres nothing there to suggest he can convince players to sign and is not a top manager in my opinion.

 

[Dirty Dutch]

1-- No business deal is ever the same of course. However there must be a standard process which is followed. For me, this means clubs agree--agent agrees terms and then player speaks with manager.

Of course this can differ with feelers put out to agents and managers talking with players prior to terms being agreed.

The key for me is manager involvement.


2-- This can be achieved on the phone and these agents are not one man bands (like Raiola seems to be). Its pretty easy to get someone on the phone if youre in the same industry.

3-- Yes there may be plenty of factors which scupper deals. However its up to the negotiator on our side to know in advance how and why these deals could fall through.

When i do a deal i always have one eye out for them staying with their current structure or switching to what i am recommending or going with a 3rd party.

If i feel theres a possibility that a 3rd party undercuts me then i go as low as i feel comfortable with within a strict timeframe. If they may elect to stay with their current structure and negotiate a better deal i immediately bring this up and ask them if they feel valued having not been offered this in their deal originally.

Either way i have a timeframe.

If anything gets sticky i bring in an expert in my field to speak informally with the client...thats usually the push they need after ive done the groundwork.

So in this instance i would be Moshiri/Kenwright etc and the expert would be Koeman.

Clearly Moshiri is in charge of the process and Koeman is the closer.

4-- Ive no opinion on Moshiri. Theres not enough information for me to have an opinion other than hes extremely savvy with investments and is new to football (he never had a board seat or any internal role at arsenal).

Koeman has had a pretty poor career overall

A-- Took over Ajax and PSV when they were major favourites for titles and left both quickly when they soon tanked.

B-- Took over Valencia who were 3rd best in Spain and their form would have seen them relegated if he hadnt been sacked. Hated by fans and some top players filed lawsuits.

C--Benfica were favourites to retain their title and he took them down to 3rd in a 3 horse race...he was seen as a weirdo over there.

D--AZ sacked him within 6months.

E-- Brilliant for Feyenoord with NO MONEY l where he was forced to play young players who had fantastic pedigree.

F-- Took over from Poch and kept Saints where they were in the league (note ours and liverpools/chelseas nosedives) with Les Reed doing the player hiring with Koeman having some small role i guess (Reed also did the hiring under Poch as shown in a few articles).

Theres nothing there to suggest he can convince players to sign and is not a top manager in my opinion.

Before you read this you have te know i'm from Holland so its not that i'm retarded, its just that my english isnt perfect i hope you'll understand

The thing you're saying arent the whole truth. He did a fantastic job with ajax. Won the title after a long time and reached the quarter finals in the Cl wich he lost in the last minute by a goal of inzaghi and that was a milan team with Seedorf, pirlo, gatusso, kaka etc. He went through a poule with Valencia and arsenal(invincables). He didnt lost in those matches because he always came up with tactical suprised for the opponents. All the players who worked under him at that time still saying he's a fantastic manager.

With PSV he reached again the quarterfinals and again he kicked out Arsenal while Arsenal was much better at that time. He also won the league titel as you said.

At Valencia he brought in a lot of youth( Silva,mata) and he got the difficult task to remove all the older players like baraja, marchena, albelda etc. That didnt worked out but he still won the cup. Couple of years ago he admitted he would have done things different now but it was just the wrong place at the wrong time.

With Benfica he also reached the quarter finals of the CL but lost against barca who won the CL that year. Benfica wasnt the best team, that was porto.

With az i agree with you he didnt do verry well but when he got sacked it was a suprise in Holland because it was still verry early in the season.

I'm a feyenoordfan and i can yell you he did brilliant with us. We were like Everton in the last to years, a midtable team. With koeman we played suddenly for the titel only with youth, beacause again he was tactical verry verry good.

With southampton he did again brilliant. In the two years he won against every big team. Look at the results, he won twice at OLd Trafford, twice at home against Arsenal, didnt lost against chelsea's Mourinho and won against every premier League team at least once. He did bring in Some players like pelle and tadic who were great for them. Ask the southampton fans and again you will hear that he was tacticcaly spot on and played attractive football.

In Holland we see him as the best coach we have and although he made some mistakes earlier in his career like almost every manager he deffinately is a topcoach now.
Everybode in Holland wants him to coach the national team but that won't happen verry woon i think.

I could've say much more about him but that would cost me to much time

 

[Barnfred 55]

1-- No business deal is ever the same of course. However there must be a standard process which is followed. For me, this means clubs agree--agent agrees terms and then player speaks with manager.

Of course this can differ with feelers put out to agents and managers talking with players prior to terms being agreed.

The key for me is manager involvement.


2-- This can be achieved on the phone and these agents are not one man bands (like Raiola seems to be). Its pretty easy to get someone on the phone if youre in the same industry.

3-- Yes there may be plenty of factors which scupper deals. However its up to the negotiator on our side to know in advance how and why these deals could fall through.

When i do a deal i always have one eye out for them staying with their current structure or switching to what i am recommending or going with a 3rd party.

If i feel theres a possibility that a 3rd party undercuts me then i go as low as i feel comfortable with within a strict timeframe. If they may elect to stay with their current structure and negotiate a better deal i immediately bring this up and ask them if they feel valued having not been offered this in their deal originally.

Either way i have a timeframe.

If anything gets sticky i bring in an expert in my field to speak informally with the client...thats usually the push they need after ive done the groundwork.

So in this instance i would be Moshiri/Kenwright etc and the expert would be Koeman.

Clearly Moshiri is in charge of the process and Koeman is the closer.

4-- Ive no opinion on Moshiri. Theres not enough information for me to have an opinion other than hes extremely savvy with investments and is new to football (he never had a board seat or any internal role at arsenal).

Koeman has had a pretty poor career overall

A-- Took over Ajax and PSV when they were major favourites for titles and left both quickly when they soon tanked.

B-- Took over Valencia who were 3rd best in Spain and their form would have seen them relegated if he hadnt been sacked. Hated by fans and some top players filed lawsuits.

C--Benfica were favourites to retain their title and he took them down to 3rd in a 3 horse race...he was seen as a weirdo over there.

D--AZ sacked him within 6months.

E-- Brilliant for Feyenoord with NO MONEY l where he was forced to play young players who had fantastic pedigree.

F-- Took over from Poch and kept Saints where they were in the league (note ours and liverpools/chelseas nosedives) with Les Reed doing the player hiring with Koeman having some small role i guess (Reed also did the hiring under Poch as shown in a few articles).

Theres nothing there to suggest he can convince players to sign and is not a top manager in my opinion.

Zat.

You're still making the assumption that football transfer negotiations are conducted in the same way as your own business negotiations. I simply don't think that's true. Plus there's no way 10/10 agents would be happy to sit down and discuss with us, either face to face or over the telephone, given the quality of players we were after. Most calls, if they even happened, would have ended with a "not interested thank you".

The gist of my post was not about how negotiations are conducted, but about how you made unsupported assumptions and statements regarding those negotiations, to back up your view that Koeman isn't a top manager. (Thought you had similar negative views on Morishi too so apologies if that isn't the case). To an extent, you've done it again in your response to me. I'll take it as read your comments re his earlier managerial positions are accurate. I'm not a big follower of European football so have no particular opinions on that. I've only been aware of his record since he joined Southampton and during his short term at Everton which, in my view, has been very impressive.

However, you give him no credit whatsoever for his time at Southampton, saying that he basically kept them at the same level. In fact, he improved their position from 8th to 7th to 6th, and their points tally from 56 to 60 to 63. Last season was a particularly competitive year and Southampton only finished 3 points off a champions league position. This despite losing 90% of his best players.

You also say that he had little input into the transfers at Southampton, most of which were down to Les Read. But you just said that he was the main reason that we didn't get our transfer targets in because there's nothing to suggest that he can convince players to sign. Either he does or doesn't have an input. You can't just say that when it goes well it must have been somebody else, but when it goes wrong it's always him. But that's exactly what you are saying. Also, all the signs are that Kone, Gabbiadini and Brahimi all wanted to sign but their clubs moved the goalposts. Would he not have had an input into these?

As I said Zat, everybody's entitled to their opinion and to express it on this forum. I just feel as though you're looking for faults and also not giving credit where it's due, just to suit your agenda.

 

[Barnfred 55]

1-- No business deal is ever the same of course. However there must be a standard process which is followed. For me, this means clubs agree--agent agrees terms and then player speaks with manager.

Of course this can differ with feelers put out to agents and managers talking with players prior to terms being agreed.

The key for me is manager involvement.


2-- This can be achieved on the phone and these agents are not one man bands (like Raiola seems to be). Its pretty easy to get someone on the phone if youre in the same industry.

3-- Yes there may be plenty of factors which scupper deals. However its up to the negotiator on our side to know in advance how and why these deals could fall through.

When i do a deal i always have one eye out for them staying with their current structure or switching to what i am recommending or going with a 3rd party.

If i feel theres a possibility that a 3rd party undercuts me then i go as low as i feel comfortable with within a strict timeframe. If they may elect to stay with their current structure and negotiate a better deal i immediately bring this up and ask them if they feel valued having not been offered this in their deal originally.

Either way i have a timeframe.

If anything gets sticky i bring in an expert in my field to speak informally with the client...thats usually the push they need after ive done the groundwork.

So in this instance i would be Moshiri/Kenwright etc and the expert would be Koeman.

Clearly Moshiri is in charge of the process and Koeman is the closer.

4-- Ive no opinion on Moshiri. Theres not enough information for me to have an opinion other than hes extremely savvy with investments and is new to football (he never had a board seat or any internal role at arsenal).

Koeman has had a pretty poor career overall

A-- Took over Ajax and PSV when they were major favourites for titles and left both quickly when they soon tanked.

B-- Took over Valencia who were 3rd best in Spain and their form would have seen them relegated if he hadnt been sacked. Hated by fans and some top players filed lawsuits.

C--Benfica were favourites to retain their title and he took them down to 3rd in a 3 horse race...he was seen as a weirdo over there.

D--AZ sacked him within 6months.

E-- Brilliant for Feyenoord with NO MONEY l where he was forced to play young players who had fantastic pedigree.

F-- Took over from Poch and kept Saints where they were in the league (note ours and liverpools/chelseas nosedives) with Les Reed doing the player hiring with Koeman having some small role i guess (Reed also did the hiring under Poch as shown in a few articles).

Theres nothing there to suggest he can convince players to sign and is not a top manager in my opinion.

As a matter of interest Zat, what would you prefer?

1. Everton stagnate this year therefore proving you to be correct in your assessment of Koeman as a poor manager

2. Everton to finish top 4 with a cup win and koeman gets LMA manager of the year.

 

[Zatara]

Before you read this you have te know i'm from Holland so its not that i'm retarded, its just that my english isnt perfect i hope you'll understand

The thing you're saying arent the whole truth. He did a fantastic job with ajax. Won the title after a long time and reached the quarter finals in the Cl wich he lost in the last minute by a goal of inzaghi and that was a milan team with Seedorf, pirlo, gatusso, kaka etc. He went through a poule with Valencia and arsenal(invincables). He didnt lost in those matches because he always came up with tactical suprised for the opponents. All the players who worked under him at that time still saying he's a fantastic manager.

With PSV he reached again the quarterfinals and again he kicked out Arsenal while Arsenal was much better at that time. He also won the league titel as you said.

At Valencia he brought in a lot of youth( Silva,mata) and he got the difficult task to remove all the older players like baraja, marchena, albelda etc. That didnt worked out but he still won the cup. Couple of years ago he admitted he would have done things different now but it was just the wrong place at the wrong time.

With Benfica he also reached the quarter finals of the CL but lost against barca who won the CL that year. Benfica wasnt the best team, that was porto.

With az i agree with you he didnt do verry well but when he got sacked it was a suprise in Holland because it was still verry early in the season.

I'm a feyenoordfan and i can yell you he did brilliant with us. We were like Everton in the last to years, a midtable team. With koeman we played suddenly for the titel only with youth, beacause again he was tactical verry verry good.

With southampton he did again brilliant. In the two years he won against every big team. Look at the results, he won twice at OLd Trafford, twice at home against Arsenal, didnt lost against chelsea's Mourinho and won against every premier League team at least once. He did bring in Some players like pelle and tadic who were great for them. Ask the southampton fans and again you will hear that he was tacticcaly spot on and played attractive football.

In Holland we see him as the best coach we have and although he made some mistakes earlier in his career like almost every manager he deffinately is a topcoach now.
Everybode in Holland wants him to coach the national team but that won't happen verry woon i think.

I could've say much more about him but that would cost me to much time

Ronald, is that you?

 

[Zatara]

As a matter of interest Zat, what would you prefer?

1. Everton stagnate this year therefore proving you to be correct in your assessment of Koeman as a poor manager

2. Everton to finish top 4 with a cup win and koeman gets LMA manager of the year.

3. Everton win the league

 

[Efcjake]

There are two areas responsible for this failure:

1. The scouting department for failing to get enough targets together for us to have options to fall back on.
2. Those responsible for handling the negotiations for getting involved in deals for players who had no interest in coming in the first place.

 

[Barnfred 55]

3. Everton win the league

If we did would you change your mind on Koeman.

I'd probably want to bum him myself

 

[Zatara]

If we did would you change your mind on Koeman.

I'd probably want to bum him myself

Its probably easier if you tell me what you want me to write mate...

 

[Neiler]

Can i just sum up possibly ten threads on here:

"We're pissed off with the transfer window".

Nothing if not a time saver.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Its probably easier if you tell me what you want me to write mate...

I thought I'd asked you a straightforward either/or question. Which would you prefer?.

If you don't want to answer it that's fine.

 

[moyes cardy]

I know why don't we do a "Leeds"and spend crazy money on overpriced players just to satisfy the this forum. Or..instead have a sound plan - get the manager you want the DOF you need and build on solid ground. Some of you on here would pay 50m on sissoko just so we can say we did it. Madness and brainless and thankfully your not in charge.