Current Affairs What is Woke ?

[Rita_Poon]

One of my favourite woke Star Wars arguments from the basement man children is "we don't need diversity, can't you see how many aliens are on the show and movies?"

Will I get away with a very cliched 'it's a trap' gif here?

 

[Hinchcliffe's Corner]

Will I get away with a very cliched 'it's a trap' gif here?

 

[Xizor]

Will I get away with a very cliched 'it's a trap' gif here?

 

[Wizard]

Did elves live at the same time as the dinosaurs?

 

[Xizor]

View attachment 279708

I never really thought about it before, but essentially in this scene you've got a well-travelled former Jedi master, who has fought in a Republic-spanning war and faced down the Force's most eligible literal personifications of Evil in the Sith, and so clearly seen some stuff in his time, saying "Compared to everywhere else in the Galaxy I've been, this one desert town can go eat a bag of dicks".

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

As a bit of a Tolkien nerd, I'm gonna break this down, and possibly (though unlikely) break you.

Firstly, the series wasn't "chosen" for modern audiences, the show is being made primarily because Bezos is a Tolkien nut and wants to see it made, and is happy to lose lots of money over making it. Bit like how George Harrison wanted to see Life Of Brian on the big screen.

The dialogue, writing etc is constantly said to be "bad" because it's continuously compared to Peter Jackson's action movies. The choices of story and direction in the show are based off thousands of pages of writings that were published long after Tolkien's death, often with multiple versions of events, leaving the creators a damned if they do, damned if they don't choice.

The show has apparently been lapped up quite well seeing as season 2 was #1 on Prime in multiple countries.

The argument about inclusion: if you're noticing that there's black elves and dwarves, and it's bothering, I think that says a lot more about you than anything else. Let's not beat around the bush here, Tolkien is racist. Perhaps not in his day, but in 2024, his writing is racist. He describes multiple times in his works that the evil people are brown or black (and uses other words besides that aren't used today), he even described some people in the deep south as looking like trolls. Charming, but again, a product of his day.

At the end of the day, why is anyone arsed? I get to see events from a favourite novelist of mine on screen that I didn't think would happen, and if I don't like it, remember, it ain't real! Tolkien would be spinning in his grave more about people using his work as escapism, it upset him when he was alive, and clearly people upset with it in 2024 are because it's not how they wanted their imaginary world to look. Get over yourselves champs, even he would be embarrassed for you.

I suppose it's akin to observers of the diabolical actions of the Russian invaders carrying out atrocities against Ukrainians leading to these Russians being referred to as Orcs.

 

[Hinchcliffe's Corner]

I suppose it's akin to observers of the diabolical actions of the Russian invaders carrying out atrocities against Ukrainians leading to these Russians being referred to as Orcs.

To a degree but perhaps in another way; orcs are enslaved, have no choice in going to war or not, in much the same way Russians are enlisted.

 

[bluestevon]

As a bit of a Tolkien nerd, I'm gonna break this down, and possibly (though unlikely) break you.

Firstly, the series wasn't "chosen" for modern audiences, the show is being made primarily because Bezos is a Tolkien nut and wants to see it made, and is happy to lose lots of money over making it. Bit like how George Harrison wanted to see Life Of Brian on the big screen.

The dialogue, writing etc is constantly said to be "bad" because it's continuously compared to Peter Jackson's action movies. The choices of story and direction in the show are based off thousands of pages of writings that were published long after Tolkien's death, often with multiple versions of events, leaving the creators a damned if they do, damned if they don't choice.

The show has apparently been lapped up quite well seeing as season 2 was #1 on Prime in multiple countries.

The argument about inclusion: if you're noticing that there's black elves and dwarves, and it's bothering, I think that says a lot more about you than anything else. Let's not beat around the bush here, Tolkien is racist. Perhaps not in his day, but in 2024, his writing is racist. He describes multiple times in his works that the evil people are brown or black (and uses other words besides that aren't used today), he even described some people in the deep south as looking like trolls. Charming, but again, a product of his day.

At the end of the day, why is anyone arsed? I get to see events from a favourite novelist of mine on screen that I didn't think would happen, and if I don't like it, remember, it ain't real! Tolkien would be spinning in his grave more about people using his work as escapism, it upset him when he was alive, and clearly people upset with it in 2024 are because it's not how they wanted their imaginary world to look. Get over yourselves champs, even he would be embarrassed for you.

Ok so he's racist, how then do you explain his private letters from 38'


Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestätigung [i.e. confirmation of his ‘Aryan’ origin] (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine.

(Letters, p. 37)



But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people… the main part of my descent is… purely English… I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Or a other private letter from 41'

Anyway, I have in this War a burning private grudge… against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler… Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light.

(Letters, pp. 55–6)

Or a further one

Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated… with racialist theories.

(Letters, p. 375)

The one thing you do say that's correct is that they literally had many versions of events to choose from as Tolkien was constantly writing differing versions of events - but errrm that doesn't really explain why the writers chose numerous times with these options available to just say 'bollox we can do better' and the dialogue isn't bad because it's compared to the Jackson movies, it's just plain bad on every level.

I know Bezos is apparently a huge fan of the work, a shame he is gonna be known for an absolutely car crash adaptation of what he apparently loved.

Btw Blue Bill was a huge Everton fan, fans don't necessarily do justice to what they apparently treasure

 

[bluestevon]

I suppose it's akin to observers of the diabolical actions of the Russian invaders carrying out atrocities against Ukrainians leading to these Russians being referred to as Orcs.

Mate hurry over to the correct thread, you'll never get to your 5,000th post in there otherwise, those videos and ISW articles won't post themselves yanno - less than 1000 posts left, go go go.

 

[Hinchcliffe's Corner]

Ok so he's racist, how then do you explain his private letters from 38'


Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestätigung [i.e. confirmation of his ‘Aryan’ origin] (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine.

(Letters, p. 37)



But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people… the main part of my descent is… purely English… I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Or a other private letter from 41'

Anyway, I have in this War a burning private grudge… against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler… Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light.

(Letters, pp. 55–6)

Or a further one

Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated… with racialist theories.

(Letters, p. 375)

The one thing you do say that's correct is that they literally had many versions of events to choose from as Tolkien was constantly writing differing versions of events - but errrm that doesn't really explain why the writers chose numerous times with these options available to just say 'bollox we can do better' and the dialogue isn't bad because it's compared to the Jackson movies, it's just plain bad on every level.

I know Bezos is apparently a huge fan of the work, a shame he is gonna be known for an absolutely car crash adaptation of what he apparently loved.

Btw Blue Bill was a huge Everton fan, fans don't necessarily do justice to what they apparently treasure

I mean he clearly writes about Variags and Easterlings as being sub human. It fits the narrative of his works, and it was acceptable language 100 years ago, but it's stereotyped literacy. What you've quoted doesn't change that. If you don't like a show for other reasons nobody should tell you otherwise of course.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Mate hurry over to the correct thread, you'll never get to your 5,000th post in there otherwise, those videos and ISW articles won't post themselves yanno - less than 1000 posts left, go go go.

You studying the data of posters in the Ukraine thread now comrade

 

[bluestevon]

You studying the data of posters in the Ukraine thread now comrade

Took like thirty seconds to check mate, not exactly like splitting the atom.

Almost a bot like degree of activity though so well in, keep up the good work.

 

[wandyr79]

See, that's not what my definition of 'woke' would be.

Politically correct, easily offended, overtly sensitive, idiocy, intolerance of other people's opinions. These are all traits of the modern day 'woke'.

HOWEVER!

Progressive, thoughtfulness, awareness of social issues and inclusiveness towards minorities are all traits also.


It's just a case of putting up with the first bits in the hope the other bits outweigh it.

They are the same things perceived in different lights.

Casting a black woman in a perceived white role is progressive, thoughtful, etc. However, some people will see this as PC, be offended by it, and show intolerance towards it. Maybe they just auditioned better, the casting director saw them as perfect for the role because of their ability?

Same with a trans person being used to advertise a product or promoting a wide range of products to cater for different sections of society.

So if people see these acts as the first then it is impossible for them to see them as the second.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

They are the same things perceived in different lights.

Casting a black woman in a perceived white role is progressive, thoughtful, etc. However, some people will see this as PC, be offended by it, and show intolerance towards it. Maybe they just auditioned better, the casting director saw them as perfect for the role because of their ability?

Same with a trans person being used to advertise a product or promoting a wide range of products to cater for different sections of society.

So if people see these acts as the first then it is impossible for them to see them as the second.

But the same people always see them the same way. The woke will applaud it while the non-woke get cross

 

[bluestevon]

I mean he clearly writes about Variags and Easterlings as being sub human. It fits the narrative of his works, and it was acceptable language 100 years ago, but it's stereotyped literacy. What you've quoted doesn't change that. If you don't like a show for other reasons nobody should tell you otherwise of course.

Isn't that a case of retrofitting a word or phrase how it's viewed and used now (or regarded as politically incorrect so not used) into a time when the word has a completely different context.

Then labelling the person as racist because that's what Hinchcliffe's corner thinks when he reads it, so putting your modern sensibilities upon something.

Least you haven't done what I've seen before though and see someone using black Numeanorians as a way of saying he was racist .

The sub human thing - which I've never seen those words if they were written by Tolkien, would you not think it was more a description of the behaviour and actions of those essentially corrupted by his worlds version of Satan than somehow trying to morph it into some view about racial superiority?