What can get people to stand on their own feet?

[Bruce Wayne]

As I said Bruce 'Benefits' can encompass a great many things, Dole....Working Tax Credits, I get working tax credits which if I didn't then I would have to pack in and go on the dole.
When our 1st child came out conventionally (albeit through the skylight as opposed to the front door) we were living abroad, something that we had done due to not being able to get a job here....... got on my bike as he said. We then came back as we deemed it to be that our child would have a better life with relatives around than on the far side of the earth, when our 2nd arrived (through the already open sunroof) I was being laid off from my 30k job with only a 16k one available ( which lasted 3 months), the 3rd was a bit of a suprise tbh but I was already self-employed by then as I had started a business to get off the dole.

As you know though, figures can be manipulated in almost any way to suit a cause, and there has long been a difference between the govs. unemployment figures and the oppositions, an example being that in '95 on my return from Australia backpacking, I went down the jobcentre and was told instantly that I was able to head off to anywhere within the e.u. and receive benefit for 3 months (which at the start of May sounds like a great idea to anyone that's just arrived back from travelling)" You went to Greece Mr. Bottle of, if you like you could head back there to look for work" (more winking going on than you'd ever believe), they even sorted out the address of the local office on the Island that I went to so that I could scratch on every 2 weeks. Now the point is that while you are over there, you are getting paid by the bubbles so you are off our system and the figures are reduced. Thousands and thousands did it every summer, and the bloke said to me "see you next year, have a nice winter." Manipulation of the system by the gov. to suit them and reduce their unemployment figures, they'd even get you off for a few extra months as most wouldn't head straight back, as they would go fruit picking or something on the way home, and get back in about Nov.

There are of course some that have never done a days graft in their life as well. If we went down the route of stopping benefits altogether though then we would just end up with loads working on the side or robbing or dealing and staying out of the system altogether.

Sure, I've no doubt all parties fiddle the stats. I got the number from this weeks Economist so they're probably about as impartial as you'll get in the media these days. As the numbers I've posted up suggest though, we can't continue the nanny state we currently have, for no other reason than we can't afford to. We have to get people more self sufficient, and these stats don't seem to suggest that this is happening, the opposite if anything seems to be the case.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

Something has to give.

The Rich and well off.
If they don't like it then seek pastures greener as the downtrodden masses have had to do in the past.
I'm sure their skills will be welcomed abroad where they can head with their pounds, and pay for the healthcare that they can afford and the education for their children.
The thing is Bruce it's only when people have it (wealth) that they start to say that others should have to pay for it and resent them getting it for free, even though they can also still get it for free as well, it's not like it's means tested and the more affluent are forced to pay and denied the free treatment or education for their kids, it's that they choose to pay for BUPA etc and private schools, and so then think that everyone else should as well.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The well off already pay the majority of our taxes though. In its current form the welfare state will bankrupt the country due to the changing demographic situation. For instance by 2033 the percentage of people aged 85 or over is expected to double.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

We could quite easily have had some kind of epidemic by then though that wipes a load out , or a World War that obliterates a generation, we are told that we have all been living unhealthily for years so by then the effects could well be taking their toll.

The well off don't necessarily pay a lot of taxes though, as they will get a lot of their income in the form of dividends if they own a company, which to my knowledge they pay 0% tax on so for every bloke on the bottom rung that's pulling a fiddle there will be someone at the top who's pulling one that equates to a hell of a lot more in monetary terms.

An example that I know of is mates who are contract draughtsmen, they register as limited companies and earn +£35 per hour, they pay less tax as they pay it all to themselves in the form of dividends, than a mate who is a forklift driver on about £7.50p.h., they have to have a shareholder meeting to award their dividends and as they are all ushoited fans these have been held in various european cities over the years dependent on c.l. draws, and 1 year they had their shareholders meetings in Rio with a post meeting suare in the Maracana.
So to say that the rich are paying all their taxes is often not the case at all.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I believe the wealthiest 1% pay 23% of all taxes.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

I believe the wealthiest 1% pay 23% of all taxes.

I take it that will be your footballers/ entertainers etc then, cos your business owners will be doing the dividend fiddle so that they pay as little as possible.
Your top 1% will be how many people and averaging how much in earnings ?

 

[davek]

All the people in the banking/finance sector should be incarcerated the [Poor language removed] we're in now because of them. People on benefit should be made to be wardens in the prisons housing them.

Job done.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

will they pay me +60k so that I won't be on tax credits ?

Or is it just the ones on the dole ?

Halt the bonuses payed in that sector, they get payed handsomely and the bonuses are beyond comprehension, if they don't like it then they could always retrain or start a small business.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

We could quite easily have had some kind of epidemic by then though that wipes a load out , or a World War that obliterates a generation, we are told that we have all been living unhealthily for years so by then the effects could well be taking their toll.

The well off don't necessarily pay a lot of taxes though, as they will get a lot of their income in the form of dividends if they own a company, which to my knowledge they pay 0% tax on so for every bloke on the bottom rung that's pulling a fiddle there will be someone at the top who's pulling one that equates to a hell of a lot more in monetary terms.

An example that I know of is mates who are contract draughtsmen, they register as limited companies and earn +£35 per hour, they pay less tax as they pay it all to themselves in the form of dividends, than a mate who is a forklift driver on about £7.50p.h., they have to have a shareholder meeting to award their dividends and as they are all ushoited fans these have been held in various european cities over the years dependent on c.l. draws, and 1 year they had their shareholders meetings in Rio with a post meeting suare in the Maracana.
So to say that the rich are paying all their taxes is often not the case at all.

Dividends are subject to corporation tax at 21% so..single entity limited companies ie contractors do pay tax, however there are a number of scams

1. As a limited company director you are also an employee of the company, so you pay yourself a basic wage- you ensure that this does not exceed your tax-free paye allowance so essentially you pay no tax on your salary and as you are subject to class 1 NI contributions, the low wage ensures that you pay minimal NI.

2. You then award yourself regular dividends at varying intervals, again these are subject to corporation tax at 21%

3. As a limited company you are VAT registered so you can claim back the VAT on anything that you can prove is for company use (laptops, phones, cars, suits, meals for entertaining)

4. You can also claim back expenses as tax-free, such as meals, clothing, rail-fares, petrol-mileage allowance)

Its all about moving money from your business account to your personal account with minimal tax liability

 

[davek]

I still dont think we've come up with a satisfactory solution for Bruce regarding this. There's loads of pot holes still knocking about since the heavy snow. Maybe they can lie in the road evening out the surface. Take turns, like.

Bruce, what d'yer reckon?

 

[little curly alan ball]

Something to consider with regards to the welfare state is this alarming stat published in New Scientist recently.

"Of all the people in human history who ever reached the age of 65, half are alive now."

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ck-of-the-old-welcome-to-the-elderly-age.html

I read it .
I'd suggest though , if we were to ask Aneurin himself , he'd say , " Fukn get in !!! " at those figs . THAT WAS THE FUKN OBJECTIVE , surely ???

 

[little curly alan ball]

I still dont think we've come up with a satisfactory solution for Bruce regarding this. There's loads of pot holes still knocking about since the heavy snow. Maybe they can lie in the road evening out the surface. Take turns, like.

Bruce, what d'yer reckon?

You're just playin' with him , now DK .

 

[little curly alan ball]

All the people in the banking/finance sector should be incarcerated the [Poor language removed] we're in now because of them. People on benefit should be made to be wardens in the prisons housing them.

Job done.

I've gotta say , I'm feelin' DK - as they say in Da' Hood - on this one .

I went to Wearmouth during the Miners Strike . Fuk the Tories , with respect . For ever , Amen .

 

[Tennessee Blue Mike]

The well off already pay the majority of our taxes though. In its current form the welfare state will bankrupt the country due to the changing demographic situation. For instance by 2033 the percentage of people aged 85 or over is expected to double.

It's happening in the States as well. Welfare just doesn't work in it's present format. It will bankrupt both nations in no time the numbers just don't add up.
Gas, Gold and most commodities are skyrocketing while the pound, euro and dollar are failing. I believe in the next decade a huge shift in wealth transfer from the anglo american markets to the far east will be the order of the day and the welfare system will be obsolete as it will become impossible to finance.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I quite agree Mike. People here don't seem anywhere near frightened enough about the threat posed by the rapidly emerging nations. I mean China isn't producing cheap plastic crap any more, those sorts of things are increasingly made in places like Vietnam or Pakistan. They're producing detailed and complex stuff, for much less than we can. I was watching a q&a session with Brown and people in Birmingham yesterday and they were all complaining about the loss of manufacturing jobs. It's like their oblivious to the fact that there are people doing it as well as us (if not better) but for a whole lot less money. Brown was (somewhat feebly) saying we have to pull our fingers out to create the competitive advantage, but folks just don't like change.

The American and British culture over the last decade has been funded by Asia, as Chinese savings have funded the debt fuelled splurge both countries have gone on. The ironic thing is that now we're praying that the Chinese start buying more and saving less to get the west out of this mess. Militarily America is still the kingmaker but economically I think that ball lies in China's court now. Much as Dave likes to bash the bankers (and I personally think they should have suffered more - bail-outs do not encourage behaviour to change), finance is the one industry we have where we lead the world. I dread to think the state of our economy without it.