What can get people to stand on their own feet?

[davek]

Sounds like Bruce believes in the old division of the deserving poor and the scroungers. This is what happens when the Tories get a sniff of power...the old Thatcherite Tendency start revving their engines.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

I think they are dropping the £60k and still get tax credits thing, cos basically if you earn that then you shouldn't really need any help (although it is only about a tenner a week). If I got the job back on 30k then that would be enough for us to live on (not saying we would be able to put anything away for our retirement like, as politicians think we should be doing), but a lot are earning far less and if I was doing that job on day shift it would be more like 18k.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I should probably say I'm slightly bias on the kids thing because as an adopted child my parents had to prove they had the mans to raise me properly, both socially and financially, before they were allowed anywhere near, something which sadly doesn't seem to go through the minds of very many before they pop one out the standard route. It seems on one hand the state agree on the best course of action, yet do so much to support the complete opposite on the other.

Anyway, that aside, LCAB mentioned the 'free' state education. We've had that for 70 odd years now, yet still children leave it unable to do basic things well enough to gain employment. I know in America they put a time limit on receiving benefits (hopefully one of our American members can clarify that), and it sounds like it has worked really well in providing a safety net for the unfortunate whilst at the same time saying we're only doing this for a short time to get you back on your feet, don't get used to it.

 

[little curly alan ball]

[QUOTE=Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian;538604]I think they are dropping the £60k and still get tax credits thing, cos basically if you earn that then you shouldn't really need any help (although it is only about a tenner a week). If I got the job back on 30k then that would be enough for us to live on (not saying we would be able to put anything away for our retirement like, as politicians think we should be doing), but a lot are earning far less and if I was doing that job on day shift it would be more like 18k.[/QUOTE]

IS FUKN RIGHT !!!

 

[little curly alan ball]

I should probably say I'm slightly bias on the kids thing because as an adopted child my parents had to prove they had the mans to raise me properly, both socially and financially, before they were allowed anywhere near, something which sadly doesn't seem to go through the minds of very many before they pop one out the standard route. It seems on one hand the state agree on the best course of action, yet do so much to support the complete opposite on the other.

Anyway, that aside, LCAB mentioned the 'free' state education. We've had that for 70 odd years now, yet still children leave it unable to do basic things well enough to gain employment. I know in America they put a time limit on receiving benefits (hopefully one of our American members can clarify that), and it sounds like it has worked really well in providing a safety net for the unfortunate whilst at the same time saying we're only doing this for a short time to get you back on your feet, don't get used to it.

That not the fault of the system , generally . Some will be , of course , but in the main , I'd say , LOOK TO THE FUKN PARENTS .

Our kids can read / write and say please and fukn thank you .
It aint Rocket Science , cock' .

 

[davek]

I should probably say I'm slightly bias on the kids thing because as an adopted child my parents had to prove they had the mans to raise me properly, both socially and financially, before they were allowed anywhere near, something which sadly doesn't seem to go through the minds of very many before they pop one out the standard route. It seems on one hand the state agree on the best course of action, yet do so much to support the complete opposite on the other.

Anyway, that aside, LCAB mentioned the 'free' state education. We've had that for 70 odd years now, yet still children leave it unable to do basic things well enough to gain employment. I know in America they put a time limit on receiving benefits (hopefully one of our American members can clarify that), and it sounds like it has worked really well in providing a safety net for the unfortunate whilst at the same time saying we're only doing this for a short time to get you back on your feet, don't get used to it.

But dont we have that here in one form or another? There's an 'agreement' at the point of a gun that people take up employment or retrainging or education after receiving so many months on the dole. The penalty being they have benefits reduced if they dont. I think your behind the curve on that one Bruce. That draconian stuff is already in play.

So, given that to be the case, do you have any other solutions to your own OP question?

 

[Gwladys St. Glory]

“It is amazing that people who think we cannot afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, and medication somehow think that we can afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, medication and a government bureaucracy to administer it. The welfare state is not really about the welfare of the masses. It is about the egos of the elites.”

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That not the fault of the system , generally . Some will be , of course , but in the main , I'd say , LOOK TO THE FUKN PARENTS .

Our kids can read / write and say please and fukn thank you .
It aint Rocket Science , cock' .

That comes back to my earlier point doesn't it? If you adopt you have to prove you have a stable relationship, good income etc. yet if you pop a kid out yourself the state help you regardless.

But dont we have that here in one form or another? There's an 'agreement' at the point of a gun that people take up employment or retrainging or education after receiving so many months on the dole. The penalty being they have benefits reduced if they dont. I think your behind the curve on that one Bruce. That draconian stuff is already in play.

So, given that to be the case, do you have any other solutions to your own OP question?

If that is the case then something must be wrong somewhere then surely? I mean if the system is designed to get people off of it after a temporary leg-up, yet the same number are on benefits now as 12 years ago it doesn't say much for the effectiveness of that system.

 

[davek]

If that is the case then something must be wrong somewhere then surely? I mean if the system is designed to get people off of it after a temporary leg-up, yet the same number are on benefits now as 12 years ago it doesn't say much for the effectiveness of that system.

I'm a bit sceptical of all the stats, tbh. The benefit figures can be worked this way and that to 'prove' some argument or other (as it will in the election). The fact of the matter is that a reserve army of labour is always with is. It's the structural certainty of a modern economy that chews up certain skills and spits them out as defunct, and demands new industries and skills in their place. Benefit claimaints for the most part will fall under that category, very few will be part of a stubborn core that never retrains/works. Stripped of the hysteria, it's all about emphasis.

 

[daza_1973]

As I see it the benefit culture is here to stay (and in time will only become more of a burden on our economy) - I can't see any fair way of changing things without draconian measures which in turn would almost certainly cause anarchy - we created the welfare state with good intentions, but human nature is flawed when free handouts are concerned, so alas it will be a millstone around our necks for evermore......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Something to consider with regards to the welfare state is this alarming stat published in New Scientist recently.

"Of all the people in human history who ever reached the age of 65, half are alive now."

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ck-of-the-old-welcome-to-the-elderly-age.html

 

[daza_1973]

Similar to the - 'there are more people alive at present, than have ever lived in the history of man-kind' - now theres a head-ache for any pension fund....

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

As I said Bruce 'Benefits' can encompass a great many things, Dole....Working Tax Credits, I get working tax credits which if I didn't then I would have to pack in and go on the dole.
When our 1st child came out conventionally (albeit through the skylight as opposed to the front door) we were living abroad, something that we had done due to not being able to get a job here....... got on my bike as he said. We then came back as we deemed it to be that our child would have a better life with relatives around than on the far side of the earth, when our 2nd arrived (through the already open sunroof) I was being laid off from my 30k job with only a 16k one available ( which lasted 3 months), the 3rd was a bit of a suprise tbh but I was already self-employed by then as I had started a business to get off the dole.

As you know though, figures can be manipulated in almost any way to suit a cause, and there has long been a difference between the govs. unemployment figures and the oppositions, an example being that in '95 on my return from Australia backpacking, I went down the jobcentre and was told instantly that I was able to head off to anywhere within the e.u. and receive benefit for 3 months (which at the start of May sounds like a great idea to anyone that's just arrived back from travelling)" You went to Greece Mr. Bottle of, if you like you could head back there to look for work" (more winking going on than you'd ever believe), they even sorted out the address of the local office on the Island that I went to so that I could scratch on every 2 weeks. Now the point is that while you are over there, you are getting paid by the bubbles so you are off our system and the figures are reduced. Thousands and thousands did it every summer, and the bloke said to me "see you next year, have a nice winter." Manipulation of the system by the gov. to suit them and reduce their unemployment figures, they'd even get you off for a few extra months as most wouldn't head straight back, as they would go fruit picking or something on the way home, and get back in about Nov.

There are of course some that have never done a days graft in their life as well. If we went down the route of stopping benefits altogether though then we would just end up with loads working on the side or robbing or dealing and staying out of the system altogether.

 

[Matt Damon]

5m people currently subsist on state benefits in Britain, which is the same number as did so when Labour came to power in 1997. This despite the billions that have been thrown at this by the government in handouts, get back to work schemes, education iniatives.

What can get people to stand on their own feet?

7 million "economically inactive". Its the number of scammers on incapacity benefit which has increased

Its a way of life. We often see some of them and most could work but simply don't want to so get benefits on the sly.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Similar to the - 'there are more people alive at present, than have ever lived in the history of man-kind' - now theres a head-ache for any pension fund....

Not to mention the NHS. In the 50's soon after it was created, treatment of the over 65's accounted for around 20% of all NHS spending. By 1981, annual spending for over 65's averaged just over £1,000. For 1-64 year olds it was £300!

By 2000, this had changed to £5272 for pensioners, compared to £1765 for the rest of the population. By 2004 it was as below.

View attachment 2357

Something has to give.