Current Affairs Ukraine

[PhilM]

Mate, as posted earlier, no one went on trial for the massacres of Katyn, Hamburg, Dresden etc. in WW2

All war is wrong. I will not condone Ukrainian crimes although I am so angry at Russia.

I feel a bit uneasy that Katyn is compared with the likes of Hamburg and Dresden, and the reasoning is nothing to do with national allegiances or whatnot.

we should make the next few shipments of weapons conditional on those men being handed over, put them on trial at the Hague for murder

I agree in theory, but rightly or wrongly they (key countries) will not put a Ukranian up in front of the Hague before a Russian is tried for their crimes.

 

[Bluerover]

I feel a bit uneasy that Katyn is compared with the likes of Hamburg and Dresden, and the reasoning is nothing to do with national allegiances or whatnot.

I agree in theory, but rightly or wrongly they (key countries) will not put a Ukranian up in front of the Hague before a Russian is tried for their crimes.

Phil, Katyn was a complete war crime by the Soviets.

Despite the crime of the Blitz on UK by Germany, what the Allies did to civilians in Hamburg and Dresden were also war crimes. No one brought to trial from the "winning" side.

 

[PhilM]

Phil, Katyn was a complete war crime by the Soviets.

Despite the crime of the Blitz on UK by Germany, what the Allies did to civilians in Hamburg and Dresden were also war crimes. No one brought to trial from the "winning" side.

That's where I respectfully disagree. Regrettable? Yes. A tragedy? Yes, completely. I also acknowledge the principle of why it's labelled a war.

But, as I've mentioned previously on here, it's easy with hindsight (I'm not saying you are, btw) to ignore the context of the war as it was and overstate others.

Were they valid military targets? The evidence would suggest yes. Was there other capable means of attacking the war industries and infrastructure? No.

Those who planned the raid did not deliberately set out to attack civilians although you'd be hard pressed to argue they'd not have known the consequences.

And while it may sound glib, Intentional Law as it was then only covered 'direct, deliberate and intentional bombing of non-combatants'

Sadly, it was total war from all sides and humanity had spiralled towards a situation where such actions became excusable and almost a vile neccesity.

That's why I set them apart without wanting to excuse or celebrate the actions, but rather acknowledging them for what they were, then, and in context.

Would it be excusable in modern times? No, for many reasons that couldn't today be argued as above.

 

[stipe]

This is not necessarily a good thing... Are they paving the way for conscription, "For the Motherland!"?

Probably excuse to turn this from "clean" military operation (as they tried to present it to Russian public) to full scale war. Meaning full scale mobilization and artillery attacks against cities without holding back.

 

[Bluerover]

That's where I respectfully disagree. Regrettable? Yes. A tragedy? Yes, completely. I also acknowledge the principle of why it's labelled a war.

But, as I've mentioned previously on here, it's easy with hindsight (I'm not saying you are, btw) to ignore the context of the war as it was and overstate others.

Were they valid military targets? The evidence would suggest yes. Was there other capable means of attacking the war industries and infrastructure? No.

Those who planned the raid did not deliberately set out to attack civilians although you'd be hard pressed to argue they'd not have known the consequences.

And while it may sound glib, Intentional Law as it was then only covered 'direct, deliberate and intentional bombing of non-combatants'

Sadly, it was total war from all sides and humanity had spiralled towards a situation where such actions became excusable and almost a vile neccesity.

That's why I set them apart without wanting to excuse or celebrate the actions, but rather acknowledging them for what they were, then, and in context.

Would it be excusable in modern times? No, for many reasons that couldn't today be argued as above.

Phil, I also respect but disagree.

There were SFA military targets in Dresden. As for Hamburg, yes a major port but no justification for bombing the whole city.

I also know well that the Blitz killed many innocent people.

There is a stench over the bombing of Coventry. Churchill knew it was coming from code breaking, but deliberately decided not to warn the citizens of that city because he wanted to ensure the Germans did not realize the UK had broken the Enigma code.

War is just disgusting. Churchill was a *****

 

[roydo]

Churchill knew it was coming from code breaking, but deliberately decided not to warn the citizens of that city because he wanted to ensure the Germans did not realize the UK had broken the Enigma code.

There is a theory, or maybe stronger, that the allies knew about the Jewish concentration camps way before they were "discovered", for the same reason.

Hindsight and judging from afar is easy I guess. And horrible horrible decisions had to be made.

"Do we expose to the world the horror of the Jewish persecution, or do we protect the North Atlantic convoys?" (And other stuff).

Not sure I know the right answer, nor, what would actually be achieved if #1 was chosen.

 

[Bluerover]

There is a theory, or maybe stronger, that the allies knew about the Jewish concentration camps way before they were "discovered", for the same reason.

Hindsight and judging from afar is easy I guess. And horrible horrible decisions had to be made.

"Do we expose to the world the horror of the Jewish persecution, or do we protect the North Atlantic convoys?" (And other stuff).

Not sure I know the right answer, nor, what would actually be achieved if #1 was chosen.

Posted before but Hiram Johnson correctly stated that the first casualty of war is the truth. Back around 1917 I think.

Hitler was evil but mass bombing of innocent civilians was dreadful. Stalin getting away with his horrendous crimes with no reaction from the West, and this before the Soviets had nuclear weapons was hypocritical.

Instead, the West bombed the proverbial out of German and Japanese civilians.

Nagasaki had the highest per centage of Christians before the clever Americans decided to nuke it. Not that it should matter. No killing of innocent people of any faith is acceptable.

 

[PhilM]

Phil, I also respect but disagree.

There were SFA military targets in Dresden. As for Hamburg, yes a major port but no justification for bombing the whole city.

I also know well that the Blitz killed many innocent people.

There is a stench over the bombing of Coventry. Churchill knew it was coming from code breaking, but deliberately decided not to warn the citizens of that city because he wanted to ensure the Germans did not realize the UK had broken the Enigma code.

War is just disgusting. Churchill was a *****

To the first point, the evidence suggests otherwise and most importantly the assessment at the time, which the raid was based on, suggested it a viable target.

I posted this back in 2020: https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/british-imperialism.110221/page-17#post-7822819

I respectively disagree. Before I start, that's not me saying that the result was not regrettable and there certainly were many mistakes and questionable decisions.

It's also certainly an emotive subject, however I do feel that the balance of emotion sometimes clouds the reasons for the attack in the context of the time.

I think when you consider the intelligence, the objectives and the final result (minus the civilian deaths) and it can be argued it was a legitimate target...

... within the construct of 'total war'. The main points being it did have relatively significant war industries and it was a transport hub for the armies from the East.

Additionally, you need to consider the total tonnage of bombs dropped was significantly lower than other cities of comparable size (population and industries).

The real catalyst was that Dresden had a lower number of deep-level protection per population than other cities combined with an issue that is often unknown.

The pathfinders (bombers who dropped markers) were tasked at marking a part of the old city because of their proximity to the targets and lack of flak.

For me, that's the real questionable decision as this meant the fires started in older and more densely populated areas rather than directly at the key armaments.

This did impact on the main transport hub, but less so on the armaments; the argument being that the safety of the bomber force had to considered.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to disregard the atrocious number of deaths and the idea of incendiary and carpet bombing itself is questionable at best.

Nevertheless, I personally feel that Dresden gets an unfair level of criticism because of its time in the war and the general movement towards questioning Harris.

Was it a legitimate target? Yes. Were people or the industries the primary target? Armament industries and transport. Was Dresden defended? Yes.

For me, the real war crime is that we allowed this horrid war to begin in the first place, including aerial bombing of metropolitan areas. Dresden is a martyr for it.

To add to that, the ability of accurately attacking a target (say a complex) was pretty darn impossible hence why mass bombing became such a norm.

We used the Mark XIV sight, which was known as pretty accurtate for the time, but in combat had a CEP of 200-500m - that's up to 1/2 a km!

In terms of protecting Ultra, I'd say the 'needs of the many...' as the benefits it provided throughout the war may, arguably, have helped win the war.

In that context, it's a difficult decision but without wanting to sound glib that's a fact of war - making choices of life and death.

It may have ultimately saved more lives.

 

[Bluerover]

To the first point, the evidence suggests otherwise and most importantly the assessment at the time, which the raid was based on, suggested it a viable target.

I posted this back in 2020: https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/british-imperialism.110221/page-17#post-7822819

In terms of protecting Ultra, I'd say the 'needs of the many...' as the benefits it provided throughout the war may, arguably, have helped win the war.

In that context, it's a difficult decision but without wanting to sound glib that's a fact of war - making choices of life and death.

It may have ultimately saved more lives.

Phil, we can agree to disagree mate.

I think we agree that all war is wrong. What Putin is doing is dreadful but Ukraine retaliation in like fashion is understandable but just makes things worse.

I really fear for the future of peace in Europe. No, I am not an alarmist. I am a realist.

 

[Big Sams Undies]

If true it’s also incredibly stupid. Ukraine holds the moral high ground and shouldn’t let it be thrown away….

You are correct in the cold light of day but if you’re a Ukrainian soldier/volunteer and these scumbags have shown up, destroyed your city, killed your old man and raped your sister… I think I’d be executing every single one that I was physically able to.

Wrong thing to do on all levels but totally understand why some may react this way.

 

[Sassy Colombian]

“Hey, Hey, Rise Up” Pink Floyd to release their first song in three decades in support of Ukraine!

 

[devogue]

 

[stipe]

You are correct in the cold light of day but if you’re a Ukrainian soldier/volunteer and these scumbags have shown up, destroyed your city, killed your old man and raped your sister… I think I’d be executing every single one that I was physically able to.

Wrong thing to do on all levels but totally understand why some may react this way.

Every war crime committed result with reprisals, especially when you film it in a middle of active war.
This only gonna help prolonging vicious cycle that gonna result with some Ukrainian POWs getting bullet in a head, basically sentencing some of their captured comrades to death.

Same that were happening in ex-Yugoslavia in 90s, every massacre only resulted with revenge, vicious cycle that lasted for years. Excuse was always the same, "but they started first"

 

[Old Blue 2]

To the first point, the evidence suggests otherwise and most importantly the assessment at the time, which the raid was based on, suggested it a viable target.

'...Like many other major German cities during the Second World War, Dresden facilitated a wide variety of war factories. These factories, which composed of 127 in total, produced war materials such as aircraft components, anti-aircraft guns, and munitions. Additionally, due to its central location and its extensive railway lines, Dresden served as both a critical communications centre for the defence of the Eastern Front, and as one of the primary transportation centres of war materials to other major cities and battle grounds including: Berlin, Munich, and Leipzig. For the British and American forces, the city of Dresden was thus deemed a strategically important and legitimate military target, of which its demise would hasten the allied victory...'

Maybe Bluerover will read this and finally shut up!

And this from another website:
'...Dresden, therefore, became a target in early 1945. Allied intelligence revealed that, far from being an inoffensive center of culture, Dresden and the surrounding area was home to 127 factories that manufactured everything from rifles and machine guns to artillery pieces, aircraft components, precision optical devices, and poison gas (the latter manufactured by Chemische Fabrik Goye, GmbH).

Dresden was also a key rail hub, with lines running to Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Munich, Breslau, Leipzig, and Hamburg. The Wehrmacht’s headquarters had also been relocated from Berlin to the Taschenbergpalais in Dresden, and there were at least one ammunition depot and several military hospitals.
The Joint Chiefs of Staff of both the United States and Britain had earlier in the war authorized the aerial attacks on German cities to accomplish “the progressive destruction and dislocation of the German military, industrial, and economic system, and the undermining of the morale of the German people to a point where their capacity for armed resistance is fatally weakened.”

Colonel Harold E. Cook, an American prisoner of the Germans in Dresden, stated after the war, “I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks, and artillery, and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics toward the east to meet the Russians.”

Thus, RAF Bomber Command and the U.S. Army Air Forces (USAAF) determined that Dresden was a legitimate military target and decided to mount a joint attack on the city at the direct request of the Soviet government. There would be four separate raids commencing on February 13. Seven hundred and twenty-two heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force and 527 of the USAAF would drop more than 3,900 tons of high explosives and incendiary devices as part of the planned bombing of Dresden...'

 

[Bluerover]

'...Like many other major German cities during the Second World War, Dresden facilitated a wide variety of war factories. These factories, which composed of 127 in total, produced war materials such as aircraft components, anti-aircraft guns, and munitions. Additionally, due to its central location and its extensive railway lines, Dresden served as both a critical communications centre for the defence of the Eastern Front, and as one of the primary transportation centres of war materials to other major cities and battle grounds including: Berlin, Munich, and Leipzig. For the British and American forces, the city of Dresden was thus deemed a strategically important and legitimate military target, of which its demise would hasten the allied victory...'

Maybe Bluerover will read this and finally shut up!

And this from another website:
'...Dresden, therefore, became a target in early 1945. Allied intelligence revealed that, far from being an inoffensive center of culture, Dresden and the surrounding area was home to 127 factories that manufactured everything from rifles and machine guns to artillery pieces, aircraft components, precision optical devices, and poison gas (the latter manufactured by Chemische Fabrik Goye, GmbH).

Dresden was also a key rail hub, with lines running to Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Munich, Breslau, Leipzig, and Hamburg. The Wehrmacht’s headquarters had also been relocated from Berlin to the Taschenbergpalais in Dresden, and there were at least one ammunition depot and several military hospitals.
The Joint Chiefs of Staff of both the United States and Britain had earlier in the war authorized the aerial attacks on German cities to accomplish “the progressive destruction and dislocation of the German military, industrial, and economic system, and the undermining of the morale of the German people to a point where their capacity for armed resistance is fatally weakened.”

Colonel Harold E. Cook, an American prisoner of the Germans in Dresden, stated after the war, “I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks, and artillery, and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics toward the east to meet the Russians.”

Thus, RAF Bomber Command and the U.S. Army Air Forces (USAAF) determined that Dresden was a legitimate military target and decided to mount a joint attack on the city at the direct request of the Soviet government. There would be four separate raids commencing on February 13. Seven hundred and twenty-two heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force and 527 of the USAAF would drop more than 3,900 tons of high explosives and incendiary devices as part of the planned bombing of Dresden...'

Sorry, I have to shut up about thousands of civilians being incinerated?? Thanks for that.