Current Affairs Ukraine

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emir said:
Here's a video of young wealthy Russian kids coming out in support of the war, with their G-wagons. Anybody suggesting that Russians are turning against Putin are out of their minds.

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LOOOOL

So wealthy Russians who were handed their money by Putin in his caste system are in support of him?

Must mean Russians support him if rich people he made rich do.

How much did YOU get?
 
tsubaki said:
Just with regards to press freedom, I agree entirely but I think it’s fairly obvious that our press is doing much the same thing (albeit without direct government interference).

An awful lot of our news is of the happy flappy / utter doom / made up kind, so much so that even Tucker Carlson had a point yesterday when he said how much of it was invented or outright false.
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I wouldn't give that idiot any oxygen,
Trump + rabid nationlaism + evangelical christians + branding "Q" = the kind of civil chaos autocrats love
Putin + rabid nationlaism + Russian orthadox + branding "Z" = the kind of civil chaos autocrats love

It's all eerily similar and Carlson plays a big part in it. I wouldn't even view him from a critical eye.
 
Ruairi77 said:
I wouldn't give that idiot any oxygen,
Trump + rabid nationlaism + evangelical christians + branding "Q" = the kind of civil chaos autocrats love
Putin + rabid nationlaism + Russian orthadox + branding "Z" = the kind of civil chaos autocrats love

It's all eerily similar and Carlson plays a big part in it. I wouldn't even view him from a critical eye.
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I wouldn’t, but when he is one of the few people saying (accurately) that a lot of the stories are bogus we should all be worried.

If the Russians win, the blowback in media terms will be that even more people watch him because of that, and his previous BS will all be forgotten.
 
slipstream86 said:
Lots of moral posturing in the UK news lately WRT importing Russian products....specifically fossil fuels.

The Karens are jumping for joy that they got this tanker turned away from Tranmere oil terminal, even there was no legal grounds to do so. What they fail to realise is that there were some Ukrainian crew members working on that boat who will now likely return home without getting paid for the job. The world isn't quite so black and white.

And that's not to mention the utter hypocrisy on show when it comes to taking a moral stance on fossil fuel purchasing...Your everyday Range Rover driving Karen happily fuelled up with imported Saudi, Qatari and Iranian oil and gas for decades. Did they ever take regard for their funding of regional militias and continuous human rights abuses? No.

These people will be the same idiots complaining about the cost of fuel now that the supply is being cut off.
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A lot of the comments I've seen are along the lines of it being absolutely necessary that we take whatever consequences of this on the chin. So I actually think the majority will accept the increasing costs and just say "we just need to use less - its the right thing to do". Any dissenting voices even suggesting we might feel some extreme pain ourselves and maybe aren't as willing to accept it as the majority are told it has to be done.

Look at the reaction to Germany not banning Russian gas straight away and immediately plunging their citizens into darkness, cold and unemployment - everyone is saying they're choosing money over morals. I personally think there has to be a line where you don't sacrifice absolutely everything for this situation, but I think my line is crossed a lot sooner than it is for most
 
efcfanwirral said:
A lot of the comments I've seen are along the lines of it being absolutely necessary that we take whatever consequences of this on the chin. So I actually think the majority will accept the increasing costs and just say "we just need to use less - its the right thing to do". Any dissenting voices even suggesting we might feel some extreme pain ourselves and maybe aren't as willing to accept it as the majority are told it has to be done.

Look at the reaction to Germany not banning Russian gas straight away and immediately plunging their citizens into darkness, cold and unemployment - everyone is saying they're choosing money over morals. I personally think there has to be a line where you don't sacrifice absolutely everything for this situation, but I think my line is crossed a lot sooner than it is for most
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Fair points. Most people will be up in arms when they can't heat their homes because it costs too much. Strength of conviction can waver very easily.
 
efcfanwirral said:
A lot of the comments I've seen are along the lines of it being absolutely necessary that we take whatever consequences of this on the chin. So I actually think the majority will accept the increasing costs and just say "we just need to use less - its the right thing to do". Any dissenting voices even suggesting we might feel some extreme pain ourselves and maybe aren't as willing to accept it as the majority are told it has to be done.

Look at the reaction to Germany not banning Russian gas straight away and immediately plunging their citizens into darkness, cold and unemployment - everyone is saying they're choosing money over morals. I personally think there has to be a line where you don't sacrifice absolutely everything for this situation, but I think my line is crossed a lot sooner than it is for most
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I agree, we must do whatever we can to stop Putin causing unjustified human suffering an a large scale, including oil embargos.

My point was why are we taking a moral stance on this human suffering rather than the human suffering at the hands of the Arabs for years?
 
tsubaki said:
I wouldn’t, but when he is one of the few people saying (accurately) that a lot of the stories are bogus we should all be worried.

If the Russians win, the blowback in media terms will be that even more people watch him because of that, and his previous BS will all be forgotten.
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Fair, though he could report absolutely anything and no matter who wins he'd twist it to say 'see, we told you'.
'what Russia is doing is terrible, but not all the Ukranian stories are true'.
Keeping Americas geriatrics glued to their recliners angrily clutching their remotes cursing Biden no matter what he does.
 
Martin Alvito said:
I agree with your take in the first paragraph. The article contends that we tell ourselves a false narrative about our own virtue while engaging in some of the same sorts of actions Putin does, particularly when we perceive ourselves to be on the side which is morally "right", resulting in grievances with respect to our hypocrisy and disengagement by the third parties we need to take collective security action.

I don't think that the author is making the contentions you claim that he's making in the second paragraph. The author does not argue that we could have stopped this war, but rather that our actions were reasonably construed by the other side as hypocritical provocations. In other words, we didn't start the fire but we did help put the kindling in place. If we want to avoid future wars, we need to stop spreading kindling around, which simply requires us to be honest with ourselves about what we want, our past mistakes and our biases before acting. You're correct that some situations probably exist where nothing can be done to avoid war (Jim Fearon wrote the definitive treatment on the necessary and sufficient conditions, which has been extended and criticized by many others), but an honest self-assessment of this situation suggests that we can, and should, learn from our mistakes.
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Well, I'm bowing out of this particular debate, now, pal, because we're seeing the same things, but just interpreting them differently.

Either the 'kindling' that we allegedly provided sparked Putin to go over the edge, or it didn't. If it did, then the author is implicitly saying that the war could have been stopped without the kindling being in place. If it didn't, then I don't know why the condescending half-wit wrote the interminable thing in the first place.

The way the article is written, there's a very fine (if any) distinction between kindling, provocation, and cause/trigger for this war. I would contend that some of the alleged kindling has possibly had an exstinguishing, or fire retardant, effect. Weapons in Europe that can reach Russia might well have stopped Putin leaning on Western Europe with 'dire consequences if you don't do what I want' threats, while central European countries, now NATO members could by now have been given the full Ukraine treatment without that membership. The places rolled over and smashed so far are non-members, after all.

I now permanently rest my case in this particular vein of the Ukraine thread. Thank you for the benefit of your views, though.
 
Runub said:
Exactly. Staged
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Tbh I wouldn't be so confident that it is. I was in Russia 7 years ago and there were huge pro putin/ right wing demonstrations going on. Granted it was 2015 and a lot has changed but there was a lot of support for the bloke.

Funnily enough, we were queueing up to get in a bar that week and we got talking to a bloke who randomly showed us his swastika tattoo. Isolated case (I'm sure there's people in the UK with swastika tattoos too) but it's absolutely crazy that putin is running this de-nazification narrative when it's bad if not worse in Russia itself.

And to add, that same week one of Putins political rivals got shot dead near the Kremlin!
 
emir said:
Here's a video of young wealthy Russian kids coming out in support of the war, with their G-wagons. Anybody suggesting that Russians are turning against Putin are out of their minds.

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Wow that looks like all demographics are covered there, that can only mean massive support for Putin. Good find.

I just wonder though is there any evidence to support the contrary? Like say thousands upon thousands men/women and even children arrested for protesting? Perhaps a nervous government cracking down on protests by having a huge police force on the streets? Maybe even new laws to stop independent media from telling anything other than the state fed line perhaps?

Nah! ...50 people in Mercedes can't be wrong.
 


So obviously the Ukrainian estimate is way off, I think everyone could tell that, but if Russia has lost 4000 soldiers then their wounded numbers are probably off the charts. The US lost around 2000 soldiers in Afghanistan over 20 years and had another 20000 wounded. Not suggesting that Russia has 40000 wounded but their overall casualties are probably close to Ukraine's estimate of deaths.
 
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