Current Affairs Ukraine

[Tin-Tin]

 

[Martin Alvito]

I did say that the article was good in parts, and those parts included reminding us that 'the west' or parts of it have done bad things in the past and we assumed it was ok because we were the ones doing it. It reminds us that the war isnt a movie, or footy match, where we can fully support one side and despise the bad guy, and then everyone shakes hands and goes home at the end. Consequently, maybe we'll have to accept a less than ideal outcome to save lives on both sides. Fair enough, and useful points, but just because we or our mates did bad stuff once, it doesn't mean what Putin is doing now isn't wrong, or we shouldn't help put a stop to it. Equally, no overwhelming reason to give Putin exactly what he wants because that'll stop the bloodshed. That's the choice of the Ukrainians, who are the ones being slaughtered.

The annoying part of the article is that its poncy intellectualisation of the obvious fact that if we're here, then things that we and others have done must necessarily have led to this point. No ordure, Sherlock!!! If we're in a place where we don't want to be, that doesn't remotely prove we were wrong in what we did, just as if you have an argument with someone, you critically examine your own conduct, but sometimes the other party was just in the mood for a fight or had unreasonable demands, and there was nothing else you could have done. If you get lost while following your satnav, it doesn't mean tbat guesswork would have been better, does it? No matter what had been conceded to Hitler prior to WWII, he'd have kept pushing and pushing, and further concessions would still have resulted in war, but Germany in a stronger starting position. If NATO hadn't allowed the requests of central European countries to join, for example, maybe Putin would have rolled into them unopposed and be starting to want East Germany back, by now. Re-examination of 'our' actions is fine, but an implicit assumption that if we'd have done things differently then things would have been better, rather than worse, is clearly absurd.

I agree with your take in the first paragraph. The article contends that we tell ourselves a false narrative about our own virtue while engaging in some of the same sorts of actions Putin does, particularly when we perceive ourselves to be on the side which is morally "right", resulting in grievances with respect to our hypocrisy and disengagement by the third parties we need to take collective security action.

I don't think that the author is making the contentions you claim that he's making in the second paragraph. The author does not argue that we could have stopped this war, but rather that our actions were reasonably construed by the other side as hypocritical provocations. In other words, we didn't start the fire but we did help put the kindling in place. If we want to avoid future wars, we need to stop spreading kindling around, which simply requires us to be honest with ourselves about what we want, our past mistakes and our biases before acting. You're correct that some situations probably exist where nothing can be done to avoid war (Jim Fearon wrote the definitive treatment on the necessary and sufficient conditions, which has been extended and criticized by many others), but an honest self-assessment of this situation suggests that we can, and should, learn from our mistakes.

 

[tsubaki]

Ukraine has been trashed. There is little more that Putin can trash. Meanwhile Putins much vaunted military is slowly but surely, and visibly, getting its arse kicked. Russia will run out of money to finance its already lost military expenditure. Ukraine have no intention of giving in. This could be a very long, drawn out, and expensive expedition. There will then also be the small matter of financial reparations for Ukraine at the end of it all. It seems to be Putin pushing for a deal, not Ukraine, at this point……

Pete all I would say there is that we (the western public) don’t know how trashed his military is getting, we don’t know Russia will eventually run out of money and we don’t know Putin will be at risk of a coup from this.

We do know that the longer this war goes on, the worse Ukraine will be and we also know that large numbers of people across the world are dependent on Ukrainian food supplies.

Putin could have raised this peace deal for all manner of reasons, many of which could be nefarious. If that is what they are, the world needs to see that they are because there is a very real prospect that they (Russia) could win here.

 

[slipstream86]

Lots of moral posturing in the UK news lately WRT importing Russian products....specifically fossil fuels.

The Karens are jumping for joy that they got this tanker turned away from Tranmere oil terminal, even there was no legal grounds to do so. What they fail to realise is that there were some Ukrainian crew members working on that boat who will now likely return home without getting paid for the job. The world isn't quite so black and white.

And that's not to mention the utter hypocrisy on show when it comes to taking a moral stance on fossil fuel purchasing...Your everyday Range Rover driving Karen happily fuelled up with imported Saudi, Qatari and Iranian oil and gas for decades. Did they ever take regard for their funding of regional militias and continuous human rights abuses? No.

These people will be the same idiots complaining about the cost of fuel now that the supply is being cut off.

 

[emir]

Here's a video of young wealthy Russian kids coming out in support of the war, with their G-wagons. Anybody suggesting that Russians are turning against Putin are out of their minds.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Trump would have increased imports from this "great leader and dear friend"

 

[tsubaki]

Trump would have increased imports from this "great leader and dear friend"

There is a lot to be said for re-engaging with them, not in the same way we did before where we let him get away with serial bad behaviour but from a position of strength and fairness. Pushing him and Xi even further together is not in our, their or the worlds interests.

 

[larrygobfiend]

Here's a video of young wealthy Russian kids coming out in support of the war, with their G-wagons. Anybody suggesting that Russians are turning against Putin are out of their minds.

All looks very professional with the drone footage etc…

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Here's a video of young wealthy Russian kids coming out in support of the war, with their G-wagons. Anybody suggesting that Russians are turning against Putin are out of their minds.

The worst post in a loooong time. Look at the state of that clip, a load of staged footage of about 200 rich kids doing what they are told. Are you really that dim??

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

There is a lot to be said for re-engaging with them, not in the same way we did before where we let him get away with serial bad behaviour but from a position of strength and fairness. Pushing him and Xi even further together is not in our, their or the worlds interests.

I think Xi hasbeen surprised by the unity (and consequently power) shown by the west and is more interrested in our money and peace than Putins.

 

[tsubaki]

I think Xi hasbeen surprised by the unity (and consequently power) shown by the west and is more interrested in our money and peace than Putins.

I don’t - the way China is reporting this is firmly in Russia’s camp; they’ve even got journalists embedded with Russian troops. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they were arming them too.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

I don’t - the way China is reporting this is firmly in Russia’s camp; they’ve even got journalists embedded with Russian troops. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they were arming them too.

They are sending aid to Ukraine and whilst they are still obvously very pally, Xi knows that Vlads time is up, he will want to cosy up to the economic and military power house now you would assume. Speculation of course, but the wording from China has definitely softened recently

 

[Runub]

All looks very professional with the drone footage etc…

Exactly. Staged

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

 

[Gabagool]