Current Affairs Ukraine

[Rita_Poon]

No one here revels in the death of any children.

Even those types of comments are bandied about as a means of tarnishing views that don’t fit in with the continuation of western hegemony

vaults please.

 

[Tipp blue]

I do hold a somewhat different view to you in that I believe Russia has perfectly justifiable reasons for prosecuting this war (which I don’t think you do correct me if I’m wrong?) and to see it to it’s logical conclusion whatever that may be. Either Ukro surrender or some kind of peace deal acceptable to the Russian Federation.

But where we do have no dispute is around the shamefully cynically opportunistic position of the west coupled with the grift of Zelenski and his stooges.

My fear is that the west AND Zelenski are maniacs who will not be diverted from their joint destruction

What are the logical reasons? Don't say Russian security because the country with the most Nukes in the world can't seriously be concerned for its security.
Nazis in Ukraine is another BS excuse there's a bigger element of neo-nazis in Russia than Ukraine ever had. There are only 2 reasons that I can see for this war.
1. It's a land grab for resources.
2. Putins and Russias elite's utter fear of democracy.
Probably a bit of both, but none of the reasons given by the kremlin for this invasion are truth.

 

[davek]

I do hold a somewhat different view to you in that I believe Russia has perfectly justifiable reasons for prosecuting this war (which I don’t think you do correct me if I’m wrong?) and to see it to it’s logical conclusion whatever that may be. Either Ukro surrender or some kind of peace deal acceptable to the Russian Federation.

But where we do have no dispute is around the shamefully cynically opportunistic position of the west coupled with the grift of Zelenski and his stooges.

My fear is that the west AND Zelenski are maniacs who will not be diverted from their joint destruction

Not for me. Invasion was an unlawful act. I understand the premise for invasion theoretically AND the reneging by the west on agreed ways forward for the region, but it should never have happened. Invasion was a major Russian blunder too.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Look, all I'm saying is that this conflict is not going the way that most want it to. In that case there has to be 1/ a recognition of that and 2/ a formula that sets in motion the beginning of the end of conflict and peace itself based on the best terms the Ukrainians can get.

Kev takes the view that the Russians will need a comprehensive victory for peace to be called from their end of it. I disagree. I think a peace deal guaranteed by the west which allows Russia their land corridor to Crimea and a promise that NATO is off the table can get the Russians agreement. Then Ukraine can win the peace by getting billions reconstruction cash and eventually entering western institutions like the EU and become part of a trading family.

The border between Russia and Ukraine has been re-written and that's the realpolitik of all this. It shouldn't be that way but it is.

 

[davek]

He was thread banned almost immediately when this thread opened, for his posting of vile and disgusting anti Ukrainian posts.

Pretty similar to what he’s doing now tbh.

The only difference being, is that he’s now learnt how to take his posts right up to the threshold of getting banned and then pulls back slightly, once it looks like he’s about to get banned again.

You’re supporting and aligning yourself with someone who’s posted some of the most vile, evil and disgusting stuff in the history of this fine forum comrade.

Then I have more faith in the mods than you, apparently.

 

[Tipp blue]

Look, all I'm saying is that this conflict is not going the way that most want it to. In that case there has to be 1/ a recognition of that and 2/ a formula that sets in motion the beginning of the end of conflict and peace itself based on the best terms the Ukrainians can get.

Kev takes the view that the Russians will need a comprehensive victory for peace to be called from their end of it. I disagree. I think a peace deal guaranteed by the west which allows Russia their land corridor to Crimea and a promise that NATO is off the table can get the Russians agreement. Then Ukraine can win the peace by getting billions reconstruction cash and eventually entering western institutions like the EU and become part of a trading family.

The border between Russia and Ukraine has been re-written and that's the realpolitik of all this. It shouldn't be that way but it is.

What you think is how I think it will end, apart from NATO membership.. Russia will get crimia and some of the annexed areas but the remainder of Ukraine will become NATO members. This is the only way that ensures Russia won't be back for more in a decade.. it's either that or unconditional surrender or Russia that ends the war.

 

[dublinbluenose]

If that were the case his feet wouldn't have touched on here.

Kev doesnt do moral debates

 

[Kev The Rat]

What are the logical reasons? Don't say Russian security because the country with the most Nukes in the world can't seriously be concerned for its security.
Nazis in Ukraine is another BS excuse there's a bigger element of neo-nazis in Russia than Ukraine ever had. There are only 2 reasons that I can see for this war.
1. It's a land grab for resources.
2. Putins and Russias elite's utter fear of democracy

The logical reasons are multiple but the thing that seals it for me is the presence of a large group of people in the Donbas who have suffered from constant abuse and demonisation by the Kiev regime for 10 years because they are Russian , they speak Russian and wish to be part of Russia.

Any withdrawal of Russian forces will not stop these poor peoples cry for help. It must be resolved and the rightful integration of these areas into the Russian Federation makes backtracking on Russias part near impossible.

The wall of silence around this issue in the west is so great that even regular posters here claimed to have no clue about any of this

For them, ‘Putin bad man’ - and that’s the end of it.

I don’t think Putin is interested in the Banderites in the west - he’s actually said once that the Poles can have them - but he might end up going there in a few years if it’s the only way out. And it would be by means of escalation which the west maybe want?

 

[Kev The Rat]

View attachment 227179

Kev doesnt do moral debates

I ‘revel’ in no one’s deaths let alone children’s.

 

[dublinbluenose]

I ‘revel’ in no one’s deaths let alone children’s.

No, but you've said the deliberate killing of civilians is justified.

The deliberate killing of civilians is a war crime, by either side of a conflict btw.

 

[Kev The Rat]

No, but you've said the deliberate killing of civilians is justified.

The deliberate killing of civilians is a war crime, by either side of a conflict btw.

in which case both sides are guilty of war crimes

 

[Mrk]

I know they did. And they need to get out. However the reality is they are a military super power and wont be leaving. So what's the path forward...more young men fed into the giant meatgrinder so Zelensky can remain in power waltzing round the world in his comical khaki fatigue gear never having raised a fist to the Russians?

If tomorrow the UK decided it wanted Ireland back and invaded it by force, killing and raping its people, refusing to leave and threatening anybody who dared try and intervene with nuclear armageddon, I'd love to see you standing behind the principle you espouse here.

 

[Kev The Rat]

If tomorrow the UK decided it wanted Ireland back and invaded it by force, killing and raping its people, refusing to leave and threatening anybody who dared try and intervene with nuclear armageddon, I'd love to see you standing behind the principle you espouse here.

There is an extremely strong argument that Northern Ireland should be handed back to Ireland tomorrow

Will it ever happen ? Doubtful

 

[Rita_Poon]

View attachment 227179

Kev doesnt do moral debates

 

[Tipp blue]

The logical reasons are multiple but the thing that seals it for me is the presence of a large majority of people in the Donbas who have suffered from constant abuse by the Kiev regime for 10 years.

Any withdrawal of Russian forces will not stop these poor peoples cry for help. It must be resolved and the integration of these areas into the arissian Federation makes backtracking on Russias part near impossible.

The wall of silence around this issue in the west is so great that even regular posters here claimed to have no clue about any of this

For them, ‘Putin bad man’ - and that’s the end of it.

I don’t think Putin is interested in the Banderites in the west - he’s actually said once that the Poles can have them - but he might end up going there in a few years if it’s the only way out. And it would be by means of escalation which the west maybe want.

Dombas was started by Russia, the separatists were Russian army not the people of Dombas.. even Putin admitted this "any Russians involved were volunteers following a call of the heart" that's Kremlin speak for we planted the whole thing.