Current Affairs Ukraine

[Diogenes the Cynic]

More on the above.

Russians shoot family with two children in Zaporizhzhia Oblast

The Russian occupiers shot a family with two children in Zaporizhzhia Oblast on the night of 17-18 November.

www.pravda.com.ua

A nation that legitimises rape on an industrial scale.

Truly despicable.

 

[LinekersLegs]

 

[Yarrgh]

Dogs of war Joe Parkinson?

 

[Glasshalffull]

A nation that legitimises rape on an industrial scale.

Truly despicable.

With due respect, no it doesn't, mate. Putin and some of the half-trained, criminal, scum that are in their army may do so, but the 'nation' doesn't accept rape any more than we do. Russians aren't monsters, but just people, as we are, except deceived in an expert way and on an industrial scale for generations.

We're all outraged by what's going on, and seek a way of striking back, if only verbally , but there's no point in demonising an entire nation when they aren't actually demons.

 

[Rita_Poon]

With due respect, no it doesn't, mate. Putin and some of the half-trained, criminal, scum that are in their army may do so, but the 'nation' doesn't accept rape any more than we do. Russians aren't monsters, but just people, as we are, except deceived in an expert way and on an industrial scale for generations.

We're all outraged by what's going on, and seek a way of striking back, if only verbally , but there's no point in demonising an entire nation when they aren't actually demons.

Where does 'guilty by association', and 'sharing in the spoils of war' factor into this view? I accept there have been dissenting voices and it appears a one way ticket to the morgue very fast. I'm reminded of the first meeting (November 29th) between stalin Roosevelt and Churchill having defeated nazi Germany, stalins opening gambit was to demand 50 thousand to 100 thousand German men be marched out to the gun range as the initial reparations for losing and to prevent any further war mongering, Roosevelt thought he was taking the pish and suggested 49k, and racist as the day is long old Winston said 'you'll have to shoot me first'. How much blood is enough? How can russia be prevented from such wanton cruelty and bullying behaviour in future?
When you live by the sword do you then die by the sword? I understand the need for accountability, I also see how little there is for the decision makers here in stinking blighty. There are rarely easy answers, in some cases there are simply none...

 

[PhilM]

Where does 'guilty by association', and 'sharing in the spoils of war' factor into this view? I accept there have been dissenting voices and it appears a one way ticket to the morgue very fast. I'm reminded of the first meeting (November 29th) between stalin Roosevelt and Churchill having defeated nazi Germany, stalins opening gambit was to demand 50 thousand to 100 thousand German men be marched out to the gun range as the initial reparations for losing and to prevent any further war mongering, Roosevelt thought he was taking the pish and suggested 49k, and racist as the day is long old Winston said 'you'll have to shoot me first'. How much blood is enough? How can russia be prevented from such wanton cruelty and bullying behaviour in future?
When you live by the sword do you then die by the sword? I understand the need for accountability, I also see how little there is for the decision makers here in stinking blighty. There are rarely easy answers, in some cases there are simply none...

This is an important point. The entire situation is not straight forward, and it's incredibly difficult, if not nigh on impossible, to get an answer that's suitable to all.

On one side, I feel sorry for the Russian people, and it's important to not tar them all with the same vile brush that Putin and his cronies are producing.

There is also a large scale mechanism where propaganda and harsh social controls ensure that large swathes of the population are subjugated.

However, we can't ignore the fact that enough of the population have supported this regime without the need for the above, and they continue to do so.

These atrocities have occurred elsewhere (and far too regularly) at the hands of Soviet/Russian troops, which in the mainstay is the rank and file - the populace.

It's very easy to say, 'Well, it comes down from the top. Following orders' (Nuremberg defence), but it's up to those soldiers there to act that way or not.

Sadly, for whatever reason, too many are choosing to commit these atrocities, and at that point a fair share of the blame must fall on them, and not elsewhere!

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Whether we believe the UNs position on Russia using rape as a weapon of war the overwhelming body of evidence coming out of Ukraine is that this is indeed true.

UN related link

United Nations: Rape Is Part Of Russia’s Military Strategy

On October 13, Pramila Patten, Indicated that rape is part of Russia,s “military strategy” and a “deliberate tactic to dehumanize the victims.”

www.forbes.com

Whether the Russian popuation knows this could be argued but some certainly do and those with access to western media i.e. those who have fled Russia as a result of the war will.

Even in Russia, when you consider conversations like this and the chatter on telegram etc. paints a disturbing picture.

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-rape-russian-soldier-wife-bykovsky/31805486.html

For those who have fled to safe contries it would be reasonable to ask why there are not some protests. Maybe there are and they are just are not making the media but that would be odd as the western media would jump on any such news.

When you look at what is happening in Iran and the brutality of the regime there it does show that a significant number of people of Iran want change. I am not sure the same can be said for Russia, yet.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

With due respect, no it doesn't, mate. Putin and some of the half-trained, criminal, scum that are in their army may do so, but the 'nation' doesn't accept rape any more than we do. Russians aren't monsters, but just people, as we are, except deceived in an expert way and on an industrial scale for generations.

We're all outraged by what's going on, and seek a way of striking back, if only verbally , but there's no point in demonising an entire nation when they aren't actually demons.

TBH I have struggled with this dilemma. First condemning all Russians, then backing off and blaming only the Russian political elite, the media and of course the Russian military.

However I now find myself swinging back to blaming the stinking lot of them. The political elite and military can only exist in their current format due to the complete indifference of the middle and working class of Russia.

I’ve heard this phrased as the Muscovite mindset in so much as they are quite happy for the Russian military to invade, plunder, rape and butcher just as long as their way of life remains undisturbed and tgey can go about their business as before. It’s like the completely detach themselves from the reality of what their government and military are doing.

So no I’d say they’re all equally guilty of the crimes they commit, there is no difference in my mind between the people who perform these abhorrent acts and the people who sit on the Moscow underground on their way to work, shrug their shoulders and say meh!

 

[PeregrineT]

With due respect, no it doesn't, mate. Putin and some of the half-trained, criminal, scum that are in their army may do so, but the 'nation' doesn't accept rape any more than we do. Russians aren't monsters, but just people, as we are, except deceived in an expert way and on an industrial scale for generations.

We're all outraged by what's going on, and seek a way of striking back, if only verbally , but there's no point in demonising an entire nation when they aren't actually demons.

With due respect, the Russian people demonized their own nation by acting like and condoning monsters. When they want to stand up and act like an Iranian or almost all other populations around the globe then they can be treated as not monsters. Either they are collectively the dumbest people on the entire planet, or they are complicit and are monsters as well, it must be one or the other.

Now with anything that doesnt mean individuals are all complicit, or that an individual should be judged by another individual until they know them. But this is not 5% of Russia, or even 50% of Russia. It is almost the entirety of Russians who have shown themselves to be, decade after decade, monsters. Of Mariupol, of Grozny, of Aleppo, of South Ossetia, of Laghman, of Budapest, of Grishchino, of Feodosia, of Kuriles and Karafuto, of Fantana Alba, of Grutenberg, of Seitajarvi. Ukraine is not isolated, it is just the most recent. You will hear of new horrors in a couple years. The only reason the current horror can continue is because of the Russian people.

 

[Glasshalffull]

TBH I have struggled with this dilemma. First condemning all Russians, then backing off and blaming only the Russian political elite, the media and of course the Russian military.

However I now find myself swinging back to blaming the stinking lot of them. The political elite and military can only exist in their current format due to the complete indifference of the middle and working class of Russia.

I’ve heard this phrased as the Muscovite mindset in so much as they are quite happy for the Russian military to invade, plunder, rape and butcher just as long as their way of life remains undisturbed and tgey can go about their business as before. It’s like the completely detach themselves from the reality of what their government and military are doing.

So no I’d say they’re all equally guilty of the crimes they commit, there is no difference in my mind between the people who perform these abhorrent acts and the people who sit on the Moscow underground on their way to work, shrug their shoulders and say meh!

Well, I can't vouch for the extent of unrestricted Internet access, or lack of it, for the average Russian, but I can say with certainty that at least ever since WWII, the present day Russian citizenry and their great grandparents, grandparents, parents, have been fed a continuous, unflagging, informational diet of 'the West' being their enemy, and wanting to weaken and destroy Russia. Ordinary Russians will tell you about NATO trying to press up against Russian borders in violation of clear agreements, to intimidate Russia, if not prepare to invade. I'd guess the Iranian givernment, cruel and savage though it is, doesn't have the generations of unopposed propaganda that the Russian government has always imposed.

To put it another way, people are people. While some can be horrid, cruel, and outright scum, the majority, regardless of country, will always love their mums and children, and have nothing at alk against anyone else. It's the education and state propaganda that can do severe damage.

 

[PhilM]

Well, I can't vouch for the extent of unrestricted Internet access, or lack of it, for the average Russian, but I can say with certainty that at least ever since WWII, the present day Russian citizenry and their great grandparents, grandparents, parents, have been fed a continuous, unflagging, informational diet of 'the West' being their enemy, and wanting to weaken and destroy Russia. Ordinary Russians will tell you about NATO trying to press up against Russian borders in violation of clear agreements, to intimidate Russia, if not prepare to invade. I'd guess the Iranian givernment, cruel and savage though it is, doesn't have the generations of unopposed propaganda that the Russian government has always imposed.

To put it another way, people are people. While some can be horrid, cruel, and outright scum, the majority, regardless of country, will always love their mums and children, and have nothing at alk against anyone else. It's the education and state propaganda that can do severe damage.

There'll always be a worrying number of soldiers who enjoy their work in the sense of, as part of their human nature, they take pleasure in destruction.

You see it in young boys and girls: pleasure in making fires, damaging property and violence. This can stem to those who will gleefully destroy, including people.

But it comes down to a balance. The mechanisms of society, which help shackle such desires in everyday life, are echoed within their militaries.

Soldiers are taught to fight, including kill. Infantry, in particular, are taught to be quick, intense and violent. Yet, in many cases, these are constrained.

My worry with Russia (admittedly, they're not the only nation) is that these constraints aren't in place, and this has to stem back to social and cultural norms.

If raping and pillaging are tolerated as part of their nature of work, if not actually promoted, it can be indicative of what they as a nation deem justifiable.

So while I'm not disregarding all of what you've said, far from it, I don't see how it equates to what they are doing in Ukraine to what was once their brethren.

A policy of scorched earth... a policy of desolating a population... that's a much deeper and separate issue.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Well, I can't vouch for the extent of unrestricted Internet access, or lack of it, for the average Russian, but I can say with certainty that at least ever since WWII, the present day Russian citizenry and their great grandparents, grandparents, parents, have been fed a continuous, unflagging, informational diet of 'the West' being their enemy, and wanting to weaken and destroy Russia. Ordinary Russians will tell you about NATO trying to press up against Russian borders in violation of clear agreements, to intimidate Russia, if not prepare to invade. I'd guess the Iranian givernment, cruel and savage though it is, doesn't have the generations of unopposed propaganda that the Russian government has always imposed.

To put it another way, people are people. While some can be horrid, cruel, and outright scum, the majority, regardless of country, will always love their mums and children, and have nothing at alk against anyone else. It's the education and state propaganda that can do severe damage.

According to that stroker Bluestevon, unrestricted internet access via vpns is commonplace among working/middle class Russians. Therefore I don’t buy into the theory that they’re blindly brainwashed by propaganda and biased media reporting.

They know what’s going on in the world, they know that “the west” was never a threat to them. However they choose to ignore both the reported unbiased truth and their own sides propaganda for the simple reason of maintaining their social/economic status quo. That in my eyes makes them complicit in the actions of their countries evil activities.

 

[Glasshalffull]

With due respect, the Russian people demonized their own nation by acting like and condoning monsters. When they want to stand up and act like an Iranian or almost all other populations around the globe then they can be treated as not monsters. Either they are collectively the dumbest people on the entire planet, or they are complicit and are monsters as well, it must be one or the other.

Now with anything that doesnt mean individuals are all complicit, or that an individual should be judged by another individual until they know them. But this is not 5% of Russia, or even 50% of Russia. It is almost the entirety of Russians who have shown themselves to be, decade after decade, monsters. Of Mariupol, of Grozny, of Aleppo, of South Ossetia, of Laghman, of Budapest, of Grishchino, of Feodosia, of Kuriles and Karafuto, of Fantana Alba, of Grutenberg, of Seitajarvi. Ukraine is not isolated, it is just the most recent. You will hear of new horrors in a couple years. The only reason the current horror can continue is because of the Russian people.

Well, without wishing to be argumentative, I believe you to be simply wrong, mate. I'm not a million miles away from you with the 'dumbest people on tbe planet', but I'd substitute, 'collectively most deceived, and most chronologically so'. Yes, I agree that there has been a lengthy catalogue of horrors perpetrated by various Russian governments, but you can start with Stalin (who made Hitler look like a saint), under whom there was zero information, and a sideways look at his photo could get you 20 years in a freezing labour camp, or worse, and then move kn to similar, if not as horrendous.

Various Orwellian leaders have come and gone since then, with some horrific, and some merely dodgy, but none would countenance the slightest opposition, or condone more than the merest trickle of impartial information to their population. The nearest they got to an open leader was Yeltsin, who is perceived as an almost traitrous drunk, who, whike pissed, simply gave away most of Russia's power to it's perennial enemies. I speak from knowing one decent, intelligent, Russian and their family, who have experience of the West, but still, due to generations of propaganda, believe all Western countries to continually conspire to achieve the end of Russia as a meaningful power.

The huge bulk of Russian people have no idea what's going on. They believe Ukraine to be part of Russia, and governed by a cadre of Western puppet right wingers, who inflict racist persecution on ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. Hopefully, the lie that this is, is starting to dawn, and Putin's days starting to be numbered.

 

[Rita_Poon]

I see them becoming an even more problematic north korea. Pariahs forever and a financial war lasting the same. It means increasing hardship for its people which plays into a tightening of the grasp on them by their oppressors. Nato expansion will only enrage their overlords further and a cold war (at best) is inevitable. The talk now ought to be, how do the rest of the world operate in spite of russia, no more property deals, energy security, and a more keen eye on military security. It's a decades long game now if not longer. They've made their bed, shag em into the gutter!

 

[PhilM]

The Russians may be about to surrender Zaporizhzhia to the IAEA, and beat a retreat.