Current Affairs Ukraine

Status
Not open for further replies.
davids said:
Invasion and regime change rarely ends well. Maybe Putin should have looked at the US playbook.
www.theatlantic.com

The Legacy of Obama's 'Worst Mistake'

There’s a problem with the American way of war.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
Click to expand...

TBF I think that article sort of misses the point - "regime change" has arguably never worked, no matter how detailed the planning or for how long the occupier remains or how much effort is devoted to it.

Germany in WW2 is cited as an example, but that wasn't regime change - it was the application of overwhelming military power to the entire country / its population / its economy over a sustained period of time; they were defeated in such a complete and obvious way that a new state (states initially and then state after 1989) emerged afterwards.

That never happened in Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya; the West just nipped off the top layer of leadership and then tried to run essentially the same state with what was left (or in Libya's case, didn't even try that).
 
tsubaki said:
TBF I think that article sort of misses the point - "regime change" has arguably never worked, no matter how detailed the planning or for how long the occupier remains or how much effort is devoted to it.

Germany in WW2 is cited as an example, but that wasn't regime change - it was the application of overwhelming military power to the entire country / its population / its economy over a sustained period of time; they were defeated in such a complete and obvious way that a new state (states initially and then state after 1989) emerged afterwards.

That never happened in Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya; the West just nipped off the top layer of leadership and then tried to run essentially the same state with what was left (or in Libya's case, didn't even try that).
Click to expand...
As you say it's a model that has consistently failed. Putin has let himself get suckered into a situation that was designed to bleed his economic and military resources over what is increasingly looking like a long period. Afghanistan led to the break up of the USSR but it would appear his advisors didn't give him the recent history lesson. Although the US have learned by their foreign policy mistakes. Fossil fuel prices at an all time high and arms industry thriving, happy days.
 
davids said:
As you say it's a model that has consistently failed. Putin has let himself get suckered into a situation that was designed to bleed his economic and military resources over what is increasingly looking like a long period. Afghanistan led to the break up of the USSR but it would appear his advisors didn't give him the recent history lesson. Although the US have learned by their foreign policy mistakes. Fossil fuel prices at an all time high and arms industry thriving, happy days.
Click to expand...

TBF I am still not sure that "regime change" was really what they are after, at least directly (as in invade and remove the government, as opposed to invade, humiliate the government and then bring about a peace which causes that government to fall).
 
tsubaki said:
TBF I am still not sure that "regime change" was really what they are after, at least directly (as in invade and remove the government, as opposed to invade, humiliate the government and then bring about a peace which causes that government to fall).
Click to expand...
Don't know,the thrust for Kiev looked as though he was trying to quickly unseat Zelenskyy but trying to read the mind of a dictator is a difficult trick to pull off. Either way the US are on a winner.
 
Mutzo Nutzo said:
The investigators in The Hague will need to start working 24x7x365 to deal with the amount of war crimes cases that are stacking up.
Click to expand...
Well they have shared a video of a Russian army guy (higher ranking apparently??) castrating a Ukrainian POW with a snap-off blade so that's my "I've had enough internet for today" moment of the last week or so.

What I mean is that these things seem to be stacking at this point - but it's not a war, and Putin still has defenders, as do the Russian army.

I wonder what's wrong with people sometimes.
 
tsubaki said:
TBF I think that article sort of misses the point - "regime change" has arguably never worked, no matter how detailed the planning or for how long the occupier remains or how much effort is devoted to it.

Germany in WW2 is cited as an example, but that wasn't regime change - it was the application of overwhelming military power to the entire country / its population / its economy over a sustained period of time; they were defeated in such a complete and obvious way that a new state (states initially and then state after 1989) emerged afterwards.

That never happened in Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya; the West just nipped off the top layer of leadership and then tried to run essentially the same state with what was left (or in Libya's case, didn't even try that).
Click to expand...
Japan too. Unconditional surrender, which emerged out of Casablanca in '43, helped ensure that the whole societal structure of each countries was dismantled.

The domination of the Prussian military elite and the Japanese warped use of 'State Shinto' were eradicated, and this may not have occurred without it.

The counter-argument is that by requiring unconditional surrender and nothing else (e.g. not compromising and finding an earlier peace) many more people died.

But for me, this would have been a short-term measure and not facilitating the change required for long-term security in Europe - albeit with Russian dominance.
 
DualityNSNO said:
Well they have shared a video of a Russian army guy (higher ranking apparently??) castrating a Ukrainian POW with a snap-off blade so that's my "I've had enough internet for today" moment of the last week or so.

What I mean is that these things seem to be stacking at this point - but it's not a war, and Putin still has defenders, as do the Russian army.

I wonder what's wrong with people sometimes.
Click to expand...
*Person doing the castrating war crime has been fully doxxed.
 
PhilM said:
Japan too. Unconditional surrender, which emerged out of Casablanca in '43, helped ensure that the whole societal structure of each countries was dismantled.

The domination of the Prussian military elite and the Japanese warped use of 'State Shinto' were eradicated, and this may not have occurred without it.

The counter-argument is that by requiring unconditional surrender and nothing else (e.g. not compromising and finding an earlier peace) many more people died.

But for me, this would have been a short-term measure and not facilitating the change required for long-term security in Europe - albeit with Russian dominance.
Click to expand...

Not sure about Japan - they did remove (mostly) the militarists, but they were a relatively recent innovation themselves and there were similarities between what emerged after 1945 with what emerged after 1868 until the start of the Russo-Japanese War.
 
DualityNSNO said:
Well they have shared a video of a Russian army guy (higher ranking apparently??) castrating a Ukrainian POW with a snap-off blade so that's my "I've had enough internet for today" moment of the last week or so.

What I mean is that these things seem to be stacking at this point - but it's not a war, and Putin still has defenders, as do the Russian army.

I wonder what's wrong with people sometimes.
Click to expand...
There’s some sick puppies out there.
 
Saw a report through the week the poor mental health patients being left in large cots by the way they were adults, made me physically sick this has nothing to do with the war they've just been put there for years it was shocking they surely need to address this in the future made my blood boil .don't see these poor people getting moved out so sad.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

→ Log in 🔑 Register
🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top