Current Affairs Ukraine

[Deleted member 48881]

Do you deny this? What's your take on the Azoz Bettalian then mate?

that they are all dead/imprisoned

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

I'm sorry mate, but this is just excusing and apologising for Nazism. Arming these people is beyond the pale.

What's funny, is the pro Ukraine acolytes, like you see in this thread, want to pretend it isnt happening. It's incredibly insulting to people of colour, Jewish people, the LGBT community etc. Arming these scumbags isnt the answer, and will cause more harm than any good.

I’m no acolyte mate. Just an external observer and trying to keep it real. You appear to be one with the agenda.

Peace brah!

 

[FrenchDarrenBent]

I’m no acolyte mate. Just an external observer and trying to keep it real. You appear to be one with the agenda.

Peace brah!

Consider Zelensky is Jewish and his grandfather died in the Holocaust.

Haaretz did some in depth research and didn't really find any antisemitism in their discourse. It's more of a white nationalist movement not unlike the ideology the Russian state propaganda push. They're against women, Muslims, lgtbq+ ppl, abortion and so on.

Still, arming them is ethically irresponsible in my book. You either have an army or you don't. You can't give in on the state's monopoly on violence.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Consider Zelensky is Jewish and his grandfather died in the Holocaust.

Haaretz did some in depth research and didn't really find any antisemitism in their discourse. It's more of a white nationalist movement not unlike the ideology the Russian state propaganda push. They're against women, Muslims, lgtbq+ ppl, abortion and so on.

Still, arming them is ethically irresponsible in my book. You either have an army or you don't. You can't give in on the state's monopoly on violence.

They needed them to defend Mariupol and buy time for Ukraine to reorganise.

They paid with their lives. So As I said in my original response to catcher - let’s judge Ukraine once this is all done and let’s see if they eradicate that mindset.

I won’t judge Zelensky now. That doesn’t make me an acolyte.

 

[tsubaki]

Consider Zelensky is Jewish and his grandfather died in the Holocaust.

Haaretz did some in depth research and didn't really find any antisemitism in their discourse. It's more of a white nationalist movement not unlike the ideology the Russian state propaganda push. They're against women, Muslims, lgtbq+ ppl, abortion and so on.

Still, arming them is ethically irresponsible in my book. You either have an army or you don't. You can't give in on the state's monopoly on violence.

TBF there is a bit of a disconnect between the different understandings of Nazism that the former Allies have.

For most of the West, the defining characteristic of Nazism is its anti-semitism. For many Russians, its the June 1941 invasion and what the Nazi regime openly tried to do to the Russian people (kill off loads, reduce the rest to a slave class). Zelensky being Jewish isn't at all relevant from that standpoint, but the anti-Russian stance is.

 

[Deleted member 48881]

TBF there is a bit of a disconnect between the different understandings of Nazism that the former Allies have.

For most of the West, the defining characteristic of Nazism is its anti-semitism. For many Russians, its the June 1941 invasion and what the Nazi regime openly tried to do to the Russian people (kill off loads, reduce the rest to a slave class). Zelensky being Jewish isn't at all relevant from that standpoint, but the anti-Russian stance is.

So anti-Russian=Nazi?

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Consider Zelensky is Jewish and his grandfather died in the Holocaust.

Haaretz did some in depth research and didn't really find any antisemitism in their discourse. It's more of a white nationalist movement not unlike the ideology the Russian state propaganda push. They're against women, Muslims, lgtbq+ ppl, abortion and so on.

Still, arming them is ethically irresponsible in my book. You either have an army or you don't. You can't give in on the state's monopoly on violence.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Not a new position to take.

 

[tsubaki]

So anti-Russian=Nazi?

That is to oversimplify it - but yes, you can make a reasonable argument that the opinions and plans the Nazis had against the Slavic peoples is a characteristic of Nazism. When you add that to the specific history of the UPA it is a very fertile ground for the propagandists to work on.

 

[catcherintherye]

That they’re finished

They should never have been armed to start with

 

[catcherintherye]

I'd suggest it's less to do with pretending it isn't happening and more a reality that, like Mutz mentioned, desperate times require some questionable measures.

The Azov are a real danger to the stability of eastern Ukraine and beyond once the war is over, however there's a greater danger to Ukraine now without them.

It really is a difficult situation with no unblemished outcome which option they choose, but rightly or wrongly it's a situation Ukraine finds itself in.

You only need to look back over the last hundred or so years and see some of the reprehensible alliances (more often uneasy acceptance) for the greater good.

Some will call it pragmatism; some will use words like amoral; others, perhaps rightly, will think its lamentable, but it's easy to say so when not in position.

As stated otherwise, I personally think it'll be best to judge when they're not required although let's not pretend that it'll be a clean affair afterwards.

Ukraine is fighting for its very existence.

I'm sorry mate, but theres nothing good that can come from making alliances with Nazis.

The same happened in the 1940s, and it contributed to the murder of goodness knows how many Jewish people.

If a cause is happy to countenance collaboration with Nazis, it really reflects badly on that cause

 

[catcherintherye]

Consider Zelensky is Jewish and his grandfather died in the Holocaust.

Haaretz did some in depth research and didn't really find any antisemitism in their discourse. It's more of a white nationalist movement not unlike the ideology the Russian state propaganda push. They're against women, Muslims, lgtbq+ ppl, abortion and so on.

Still, arming them is ethically irresponsible in my book. You either have an army or you don't. You can't give in on the state's monopoly on violence.

I'm really sorry, but only hating all the above groups doesnt make them any more acceptable, or any less Nazi.

Churchill didnt arm Nazis in this country in WW2, he interned them.

It's a very simple question of right and wrong to me, and anyone on the same side as Azoz or other Nazis cant ever claim any moral high ground.

 

[catcherintherye]

that they are all dead/imprisoned

Ok. Is it good they are dead? Should they have been armed in the first place?

I'm glad theyve been put to death. It's the logical solution for scum like them.

 

[PhilM]

I'm really sorry, but only hating all the above groups doesnt make them any more acceptable, or any less Nazi.

Churchill didnt arm Nazis in this country in WW2, he interned them.

It's a very simple question of right and wrong to me, and anyone on the same side as Azoz or other Nazis cant ever claim any moral high ground.

One group. There were lots of other associations - or whatever you want to label them with - with other groups or leaders who were questionable at best.

It makes me thing of Leamas and Fiedler: pragmatism versus ideology. The world isn't as clear cut as this, hence why the world ends up in these situations.

I don't think anyone on here supports the Azov, their view or whatever else; nobody likes them or their ideologies, and if they do then they're a very big worry.

But as Cicero said: inter arma enim silent lēgēs.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

History has many examples of alliances that have resulted from mutual enemies.

 

[PhilM]

History has many examples of alliances that have resulted from mutual enemies.

It's like who'd ever be comfortable making an alliance with a tyrannical despot like Stalin...