Current Affairs The Landmarks of Slavery;

[tsubaki]

Roman legions wasn’t it ?

Some were, others were built by engineering teams that were probably a mix of citizens, freedmen and military personnel. There might have been some slave labourers involved somewhere (more likely in Italy than the provinces), but in no way could you describe them as being built by slaves.

Saying “slaves” is completely misleading anyway as in the classical context the meaning is not at all the same as what slavery between 1520 and 1850 was like. To take petes earlier daftness as an example, if you were a slave in the Colisseum you were far more likely to walk away at the end of the day compared to the criminal who had been sentenced to fight you.

 

[peteblue]

Roman roads weren’t built by slaves, pete

Roman legions wasn’t it ?

The idea that space and time were fundamentally altered in it's construction and that without the institution of slavery nobody could concieve of a permanent route between North Wales and Bedfordshire is a bit of a stretch also.

It was a joke lads, just a joke......

 

[Harryflashman]

Surely we must have transported a few of them along it though.

I think people have lost the plot. I suppose if nothing else it’s educating people about certain individuals and their roles in a previous time. However judging them against the values of today rather than the norm of their time is what gets me....

you’re a intelligent man do you not see a difference between a statue celebrating someone and a road they travelled along ? I mean WR Dean has a statue it’s clearly different than the fact that say Suarez walked on the road outside Goodison , the road isn’t celebrating him .

I’m not arguing there are debates to be had but reducing it to a base level “all lives matter though “ or “you can’t change history “ are different than celebrating what’s gone before . I have knowledge of fairly despicable people in history but I wouldn’t expect to see them celebrated . I don’t know about the diversity of your family pete but if you had to walk a grandchild whose ancestors had been trafficked or thrown in the sea by a figure celebrated in a statue It’s not an easy conversation to have . At least in the context of Churchill it’d generate a debate about historical figures being complex but being celebrated for giving money you made from slavery to support only white people Like Colston would surely Be extremely difficult .

 

[Hickson9]

It’s as relevant as most of the crap in here. If we are going to tear down artefacts that involved slavery then let’s do the job properly and tear everything down, or are we just being very selective.......

It has no relevance to our society.

As a basic level, a mature conversation will be around things that are relevant to our society.

The statue of Sir Francis Drake for example in Plymouth. It is there because of his numerous exploits, circumnavigating the globe, hugely enriching the state through raiding the Spanish and his role in defending the country against Spanish Invasion.

What we don't also acknowledge as a society is that he was a slave trader. He literally shipped enslaved people from West Africa to the Caribbean.

Now I don't think his statue should come down. However, this important aspect of who he was and our society at the time should be properly taught in schools and accurate context given in appropriate places, for example at museum exhibitions or even on the statue's plinth.

 

[Harryflashman]

It was a joke lads, just a joke......

I accept that pete my answer was A genuine question in reference To a point made by the poster because I wanted to know and now I do .

that said you say it’s a joke , and I’m sure that’s how it was intended , but there is a shtick prevalent on the internet which makes loads of such ‘jokes ‘ where a lot of the writers and posters seem to have a very different intention to you .

 

[Hickson9]

Surely we must have transported a few of them along it though.

I think people have lost the plot. I suppose if nothing else it’s educating people about certain individuals and their roles in a previous time. However judging them against the values of today rather than the norm of their time is what gets me....

The issue Pete is that we as a society don't acknowledge the role so many of our heroes had in vile practices, or even that our society is historically built upon the violent exploitation of hundreds of millions around the World and the direct enslavement of over three million people.

It is brushed under the carpet and when it is challenged this really quite fragile anger and insecurity comes out.

I have no issue with the history of the UK. We cannot change what has happened in the past.

What we can change is the purposefully exclusionary narratives that are perpetuated and keep most people in woeful ignorance.

 

[Harryflashman]

It has no relevance to our society.

As a basic level, a mature conversation will be around things that are relevant to our society.

The statue of Sir Francis Drake for example in Plymouth. It is there because of his numerous exploits, circumnavigating the globe, hugely enriching the state through raiding the Spanish and his role in defending the country against Spanish Invasion.

What we don't also acknowledge as a society is that he was a slave trader. He literally shipped enslaved people from West Africa to the Caribbean.

Now I don't think his statue should come down. However, this important aspect of who he was and our society at the time should be properly taught in schools and accurate context given in appropriate places, for example at museum exhibitions or even on the statue's plinth.

that was what I was trying to say , a debate And discussion about the statues of the likes Drake or Churchill is to me totally different to a statue about someone like Colston . I’m not saying my opinion is right but that’s how I feel .

 

[Clint Planet]

It has no relevance to our society.

As a basic level, a mature conversation will be around things that are relevant to our society.

The statue of Sir Francis Drake for example in Plymouth. It is there because of his numerous exploits, circumnavigating the globe, hugely enriching the state through raiding the Spanish and his role in defending the country against Spanish Invasion.

What we don't also acknowledge as a society is that he was a slave trader. He literally shipped enslaved people from West Africa to the Caribbean.

Now I don't think his statue should come down. However, this important aspect of who he was and our society at the time should be properly taught in schools and accurate context given in appropriate places, for example at museum exhibitions or even on the statue's plinth.

It's that simple really. I suspect there's been a lot of disingenuous hand-wringing over this issue, judging my how often this point has to be made over and over and over again.

I, for one, cheered when the Colston statue was pulled down because many people in the city, including several mates of mine, had tried and failed numerous times to get it removed or even relabeled. The good burghers of Bristol were deliberately dragging their feet on a commitment they'd made.

Even though Churchill was a despicable racist, though, I wouldn't expect his statue to be removed - merely contextualised by teaching that, national hero though he clearly was, he wasn't quite the wonderful human being you might think him to be.

 

[dead_soft]

Communism
Capitalism
Nationalism

Have all lead to mass murder in history - to pick out just nationalism is strange.

Nationalism is not an economic policy. It can work within capitalism or communism. What are the benefits of nationalism and which countries or states have effectively used it?

Like everything there is a scale and too much of anything goes the way of extremism which in nationalisms case is facism however to have no nationalism at all creates a society that have no connection to one another hence why instead we find that connection/hive mentality in social groups but ultimately that causea tensions and conflicts against said other groupings.

I’d be very interested in reading around this

We do not need to group anyone - being a lesbian doesn't have any effects when a Doctor is giving you treatment, being asian doesn't change how suitable you are at doing your job so get rid of it all.

This here is just wrong. A lesbian might not have directly different needs to another woman but a gay man has previously had a raised chance of catching HIV, as we are seeing at the moment BAME people are more at risk from COVID, trans people have more issues around mental health, women have more issues with osteoporosis, men have more issues with heart attacks.

Humans will never stop discriminating until you remove the silly concept of "us against them".

It’s not BLM that created us v them.

If it was upto me I would teach different history and cultures but I would from childhood empathise that we are all the same and that there is no "difference" in one another - all stuff like gay pride and BLM etc ultimately does is create a us and you and thats no good for a united society.

So what, Black people and gay people should just wait until it’s all sorted out? No protest, no campaign, nothing?

Think of the world cup where everyone is behind the national team and it doesn't matter what colour your skin is or who you are attracted too - that should be the goal for society.

Yes, think of the England national team supporters - they’ll show you how racism can be defeated.... what a take.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Nationalism is not an economic policy. It can work within capitalism or communism. What are the benefits of nationalism and which countries or states have effectively used it?


I’d be very interested in reading around this



This here is just wrong. A lesbian might not have directly different needs to another woman but a gay man has previously had a raised chance of catching HIV, as we are seeing at the moment BAME people are more at risk from COVID, trans people have more issues around mental health, women have more issues with osteoporosis, men have more issues with heart attacks.


It’s not BLM that created us v them.



So what, Black people and gay people should just wait until it’s all sorted out? No protest, no campaign, nothing?




Yes, think of the England national team supporters - they’ll show you how racism can be defeated.... what a take.

The reason why I choose not to debate with you dead soft is that you are so fixed in your opinions no matter what I say will ever change your stance therefore I am literally wasting precious time on this earth going in circles with you.

Im someone who is always willing to change my opinion - I see the benefits and cons of socialism & capitalism, left & right, can appreciate discrimination works against whites as it does blacks etc etc.

Ultimately people like yourself hold set opinions and will never change them as @Tubey has alluded to previously.

Not saying there is anything wrong in that but ultimately its futile debating with someone like that.

 

[dead_soft]

The reason why I choose not to debate with you dead soft is that you are so fixed in your opinions no matter what I say will ever change your stance therefore I am literally wasting precious time on this earth going in circles with you.

Im someone who is always willing to change my opinion - I see the benefits and cons of socialism & capitalism, left & right, can appreciate discrimination works against whites as it does blacks etc etc.

Ultimately people like yourself hold set opinions and will never change them as @Tubey has alluded to previously.

Not saying there is anything wrong in that but ultimately its futile debating with someone like that.

What part of your argument did you find so persuasive it should have changed my opinion?

I literally asked for reading around one of your points as I was interested in it

 

[peteblue]

It's that simple really. I suspect there's been a lot of disingenuous hand-wringing over this issue, judging my how often this point has to be made over and over and over again.

I, for one, cheered when the Colston statue was pulled down because many people in the city, including several mates of mine, had tried and failed numerous times to get it removed or even relabeled. The good burghers of Bristol were deliberately dragging their feet on a commitment they'd made.

Even though Churchill was a despicable racist, though, I wouldn't expect his statue to be removed - merely contextualised by teaching that, national hero though he clearly was, he wasn't quite the wonderful human being you might think him to be.

Nice to see you back Clint, but no one sees Churchill as a wonderful human being. He was a tough, hard as nails, egotist, who just happened to be the right politician to take on one of the worst megalomaniacs the world has ever produced. He was a [Poor language removed], but he was on the right side and saved countless millions of lives. And the little no marks who wish to deface it or pull it down are no better than the intolerant racists they hate......

 

[dead_soft]

Nice to see you back Clint, but no one sees Churchill as a wonderful human being. He was a tough, hard as nails, egotist, who just happened to be the right politician to take on one of the worst megalomaniacs the world has ever produced. He was a [Poor language removed], but he was on the right side and saved countless millions of lives. And the little no marks who wish to deface it or pull it down are no better than the intolerant racists they hate......

Those who wish to get rid of a statue are the same as those who side with people who have enslaved and degraded different races?

 

[longers]

And the little no marks who wish to deface it or pull it down are no better than the intolerant racists they hate......

I’m not sure how people pulling down a statue is on the same level as winston chuchill purposely starving 3 million people to death

im also not sold on statue vandalism being as bad as racism.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Nice to see you back Clint, but no one sees Churchill as a wonderful human being. He was a tough, hard as nails, egotist, who just happened to be the right politician to take on one of the worst megalomaniacs the world has ever produced. He was a [Poor language removed], but he was on the right side and saved countless millions of lives. And the little no marks who wish to deface it or pull it down are no better than the intolerant racists they hate......

Im not a string em up type but I believe anyone caught up doing this should be made to do mandatory national service.

Instill a bit of respect and perspective into the little oinks.