Current Affairs The Landmarks of Slavery;

[LostLegend]

He's white and was always hugely privileged.

Anyone who is black?

Read the last sentence.

 

[dead_soft]

Yes mistakes were made in the past, and we need to remember these mistakes, and not just form the opinion that we don't like that anymore get rid of it.

What was the statue teaching anybody? What lesson did you learn from it?

Do we have to keep everything we don't like?

 

[Tubey]

William Wilberforce - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He does already have a statue in Hull for the record. But one of the many people who fought for the abolition of slavery.
Although, in the spirit of things, maybe notable ex-slaves who also fought against the slave trade. I'll be honest and say that's something I am still learning about myself!

William Wilberforce 'condoned slavery', Colonial Office papers reveal

Papers reveal that slavery in Sierra Leone – the colony established by Wilberforce – continued long after 1807, with the social reformer's full knowledge

www.theguardian.com

You'll be hard pressed to find many completely stain free from that era.

Which is of course the point.

 

[Lanolin]

So much to unpack in this thread... lol

This week has been a real eye opener to see that there are people that will put more energy into leaping to the defense of the statues of 18th century slave traders than they would to defend the rights of people with darker skin pigment than them. Very telling.

A big one is the argument surrounding 'education' i.e. leave the statues up for people to learn about who these people are.
We have a very strange relationship with education here in the UK in regards to the darker parts of our history. I can't speak for today's curriculum, but I know large swathes of our past were completely overlooked in my school history lessons.

The British Empire was built on the bodies of the indigenous people we massacred to 'spread civilisation' and funded by the resources we looted from those countries and the local people who were sold into slavery.
I mean, it's a pretty big thing to overlook, isn't it?

I'd like to think we are going some way to rectify that. Here in Liverpool especially. I mean the whole city was practically built on the vast riches that the slave trade brought in. The International Slavery Museum is a fantastic resource for learning and I urge anyone who hasn't been before, to do so if you get the opportunity (When the place opens back up obviously)
If you really believe leaving these statues and effigies as a tool for learning, I think this is a far more appropriate setting for them.

Maybe replace the plinths with statues of the people who fought hard to end slavery. The educational value remains, we don't shy away from our past, but instead use it to highlight those that sought to change it rather than glorify those who profited from it.

The issue with that is you've got to be interested in learning about slavery in the first place in order to visit the museum. The people going to the museum don't really need the statues, because they'll learn from the other exhibits there. Where the statues - theoretically at least - offer a learning opportunity is that they can just be seen by anybody who happens to walk past them.

Using the completely non scientific method of my own tourism as a reference, I'm unlikely to visit every museum in a city when visiting it, but do like to have a nosey at statues when I come across them.

 

[dead_soft]

As unpopular as it seems to be to most people.

21st century humans are judging history from hundreds of years ago with the same standard as it is today and finding offence.

The problem is not history , it's people today. They can't grasp that things were different in the past and as such, want to write a different narrative without considering all the facts.

We can educate and learn from it but by changing it , we are in danger of forgetting our roots for a new manufactured one influenced by people who can't grasp the reality of it.

Perhaps people should educate themselves beyond Google and Facebook posts and embrace history whilst understanding why it may not all be great. We can't change the past , after all, just being English attributes us to some horrendous crimes.

Pretty patronising to suggest that those people marching here and around the world, many of them black people who have identities forged in centuries of oppression don't understand history or how it works. I'm pretty sure they know full well how it does and that having a massive statue of someone who ensalved your ancestors in the centre of your 21st Century city is unlikely to help people move on

 

[Tubey]

I'm talking about the swathes of people descending on the statues to defend them, who wouldn't lift a finger to support the anti-racism protests.
It's not outrageous - it's the truth.

You mean the Tommy Robinsons actually going to the statues? Sure, racists. Not a surprise.

I thought you meant "defend" as in verbally etc. too.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

William Wilberforce 'condoned slavery', Colonial Office papers reveal

Papers reveal that slavery in Sierra Leone – the colony established by Wilberforce – continued long after 1807, with the social reformer's full knowledge

www.theguardian.com

You'll be hard pressed to find many completely stain free from that era.

Which is of course the point.

Bingo.

In time, we'd be pulling his statue down. To be honest, putting one up now would be appalling for some;

He wrote to one woman friend to urge her to adhere to 'the submissive, obedient demeanour which certainly should distinguish the wife towards her husband'.

He wanted the poor to know 'that their more lowly path has been allotted to them by the hand of God'.

"Wilberforce believed that government was best left to the propertied and educated, so he was always uncomfortable with mass expressions of political opinion"

"William Wilberforce and his supporters permitted slave labour in Sierra Leone"

 

[ForeverBlue92]

What was the statue teaching anybody? What lesson did you learn from it?

Do we have to keep everything we don't like?

In a democratic vote the majority voted to keep the statue that was lobbed in the river.

Nothing gives a undemocratic mob the right to destroy what they want because they feel ENTITLED to do it.

 

[dead_soft]

William Wilberforce 'condoned slavery', Colonial Office papers reveal

Papers reveal that slavery in Sierra Leone – the colony established by Wilberforce – continued long after 1807, with the social reformer's full knowledge

www.theguardian.com

You'll be hard pressed to find many completely stain free from that era.

Which is of course the point.

Let's do away with statues of any of them, then

 

[Tubey]

Bingo.

In time, we'd be pulling his statue down. To be honest, putting one up now would be appalling for some;

He wrote to one woman friend to urge her to adhere to 'the submissive, obedient demeanour which certainly should distinguish the wife towards her husband'.

He wanted the poor to know 'that their more lowly path has been allotted to them by the hand of God'.

"Wilberforce believed that government was best left to the propertied and educated, so he was always uncomfortable with mass expressions of political opinion"

"William Wilberforce and his supporters permitted slave labour in Sierra Leone"

Yep, in this instance the term "slippery slope" really isn't a fallacy.

You ask these people where does it end and they don't have an answer. Because there isn't one - the only parameters determining what happens right now is their own ideology. The definition of extremism.

 

[Tubey]

Let's do away with statues of any of them, then

Or understand the context of why they are in situ in the first place and use them as educational tools.

Which ironically is of course why so many people know about Rhodes now of course - because the statue stimulating conversation.

 

[Tubey]

Bingo.

In time, we'd be pulling his statue down. To be honest, putting one up now would be appalling for some;

He wrote to one woman friend to urge her to adhere to 'the submissive, obedient demeanour which certainly should distinguish the wife towards her husband'.

He wanted the poor to know 'that their more lowly path has been allotted to them by the hand of God'.

"Wilberforce believed that government was best left to the propertied and educated, so he was always uncomfortable with mass expressions of political opinion"

"William Wilberforce and his supporters permitted slave labour in Sierra Leone"

Ideally what we need is some sort of time machine or 'ghost phone' so we can properly vet any candidates for statufication. It's the only way to be sure.

We can't put up a statue of Mother Teresa just in case her views were not compatible with the trans community after all.

 

[Kenshin]

Pretty patronising to suggest that those people marching here and around the world, many of them black people who have identities forged in centuries of oppression don't understand history or how it works. I'm pretty sure they know full well how it does and that having a massive statue of someone who ensalved your ancestors in the centre of your 21st Century city is unlikely to help people move on

And this proves my point.

If people are so outraged now by the past then why not spend time actually learning about the past?

You judge 400 years ago against today and find out things are a little different to as they are now.

For such a woke generation you all want to rewrite history now to suit your own narrative.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Maybe replace the plinths with statues of the people who fought hard to end slavery. The educational value remains, we don't shy away from our past, but instead use it to highlight those that sought to change it rather than glorify those who profited from it.

It wasn't erected for his good work for slavery though, it was put up for his contribution to the city. It has nothing to do with it. People can do x but still y. And before anyone jumps in with Stalin and Jimmy Saville, that is not the same. It would only be the same if everyone was committing the same acts bar from a minority that tried to prevent it and not vice versa.

I said previously they should have put a memorial to the plight of the slaves right opposite his. Then people get both sides of the story, by taking it down he still has had an influence on Bristol and that is what is being noted.

 

[dead_soft]

Or understand the context of why they are in situ in the first place and use them as educational tools.

Which ironically is of course why so many people know about Rhodes now of course - because the statue stimulating conversation.

Are they used as educational tools, though?

Seems they have had quite a long time to stimulate conversation and education but they've not been doing that.

Most education seems to have come from tearing the statues down, so I say keep going