Current Affairs The Landmarks of Slavery;

[Tubey]

Yes, the knee is and was a gesture of anti-racism. That's why they are doing it. They say it's not political and I believe them.

For me, anti-racism connotations are a little different to anti-semitic connotations, such as those of the quenelle or a Nazi salute. One is positive and inclusive, the other is negative and exclusionary. I mean, racists are going to be riled up by any gesture they perceive to be anti-racist aren't they? In the same way I would probably boo a Nazi salute. I have no qualms in saying what I believe is right and that the motivation for taking a knee is generally positive whereas the motivation for making a Nazi salute is generally negative.

I think you simply want to ignore the wider context of the gesture because it doesn't fit with your idealised view of what was happening.

For you, if someone says something isn't political, that's enough for it to not be political - as long as what they're doing is "positive". Which is a strong indicator of subject bias in my eyes.

To me, that approach is dangerous, as it allows something to be a shield that is beyond reproach that opens avenues for some very nasty things behind it.

 

[Prevenger17]

I think you simply want to ignore the wider context of the gesture because it doesn't fit with your idealised view of what was happening.

For you, if someone says something isn't political, that's enough for it to not be political - as long as what they're doing is "positive". Which is a strong indicator of subject bias in my eyes.

To me, that approach is dangerous, as it allows something to be a shield that is beyond reproach that opens avenues for some very nasty things behind it.

Nope. You're going into "slippery slope" type of territory there and it just doesn't fit here. I find a Nazi salute provocative, I don't find a few seconds of kneeling before a football game provocative, and I think anyone who does is a little odd tbh. Would be happy to put it to the general population, but I suspect most people are like me and would see the difference. Furthermore, I don't think the knee is going to progress to the point where a random white person is selected from the crowd and hung from the terraces to a baying mob. I'd honestly bet any amount of money that they'll just stick with the kneeling thing or maybe find some other gesture that won't antagonise Millwall fans. Good luck devising that though

 

[Tubey]

Nope. You're going into "slippery slope" type of territory there and it just doesn't fit here. I find a Nazi salute provocative, I don't find a few seconds of kneeling before a football game provocative, and I think anyone who does is a little odd tbh. Would be happy to put it to the general population, but I suspect most people are like me and would see the difference.

You don't; others would find both provocative to varying degrees. For most, disapproving of one doesn't exclude disapproving the other.

We'll see in time, but I think you'll be surprised what the general population thinks about this, outside traditional and social media echo chambers, especially given electoral results here. The vast majority of people are silently shaking their heads at what's going on.

EDIT: Oh, and no, not "slippery slope" - I'm saying it's happening right now. That gesture is a shield for extreme political ideology to hide behind.

 

[Prevenger17]

Also Tubey, in your own superbly chosen words:

Hello Godwin's Law, glad you popped in, didn't take you long.

 

[Tubey]

Also Tubey, in your own superbly chosen words:

I made several comparisons; I deliberately left out Di Canio and his fascist gestures for that reason actually.

The Swastika is an exceptionally valid one to make when discussing gesture context and symbolism.

 

[Tubey]

And it was you who brought up Nazi salutes lol lol lol

 

[Prevenger17]

The vast majority of people are silently shaking their heads at what's going on.

If the vast majority of people are shaking their heads at a passive gesture and sensing echoes of Nazi Germany, then I don't think the UK's most pressing issue will be people kneeling momentarily before a game where they kick a leather ball about for 90 minutes.

 

[Tubey]

If the vast majority of people are shaking their heads at a passive gesture and sensing echoes of Nazi Germany, then I don't think the UK's most pressing issue will be people kneeling momentarily before a game where they kick a leather ball about for 90 minutes.

It's not a passive gesture.

You saying so doesn't make it so.

 

[Prevenger17]

And it was you who brought up Nazi salutes lol lol lol

My bad tbf, you were talking about the swastika, not the salute

They can't disentangle the gesture from the message. They can want to all they want - but it's impossible, just as reclaiming the Swastika from the Nazis would be totally impossible, no matter how loud you say that's your intent when using it. Their personal motivations doesn't negate the actual consequences of the gesture now.

I think you know it too.

This nails it.

 

[Prevenger17]

It's not a passive gesture.

You saying so doesn't make it so.

You saying it isn't doesn't make it so. To me, it's people kneeling. To you, it's the equivalent of the quenelle. I just don't see the comparison, soz about me

 

[Tubey]

My bad tbf, you were talking about the swastika, not the salute

Just the most obvious example. Would be strange not to use it in the context of this discussion.

'It's not a swastika': Postal worker filmed defacing traditional Hindu symbol

An Adelaide man has asked for greater awareness after a delivery man was caught kicking an intricate piece of Hindu art.

7news.com.au

Good things get subverted. Kaepernick taking the knee was brilliant, completely selfless and brought about real change.

Footballers doing it now with the context the gesture has thanks to the stupidity of BLM... not so much.

Blame BLM for it.

 

[Prevenger17]

Just the most obvious example. Would be strange not to use it in the context of this discussion.

It really wouldn't. Again, a gesture that is fundamentally about protesting against racism is not in the same ballpark as a Hindu symbol that was purloined 90 years ago and is now associated with war and the murder of 6 million Jews. I genuinely don't see the comparison. The knee means nothing to you, or it is something antagonistic to you. It's not for the players who collectively decided to use it to highlight existing issues they have experienced in the game, and it's certainly not for me.

If they can't even effing kneel without us having to consider the feelings of racists and Millwall fans, then what does that say? "Do something Tubey off GOT would find agreeable, let's not forget that this is all about him."

 

[JimmyJeffers]

You both furloughed?

 

[Tubey]

It really wouldn't. Again, a gesture that is fundamentally about protesting against racism is not in the same ballpark as a Hindu symbol that was purloined 90 years ago and is now associated with war and the murder of 6 million Jews. I genuinely don't see the comparison

Ok, here's the pathway to see the obvious parallels.

ORIGINAL INTENT > CORRUPTING ACT > CORRUPTED INTENT

So the Swastika:

Symbol of peace and life > Nazi Germany > Neo-Nazi symbol of facism and racism

Taking the knee:

Symbol of Anti-Racism > BLM > Symbol of extreme political ideology

I can't make it any clearer than that, but you've already explained why you can't see the parallels, because for you things that are "positive" and things that are "negative" have no parallels. So, again, that's subject bias. And again, you should be blaming BLM for why people are reacting the way they are now, and why people see a movement that began as a peaceful expression of distaste for institutional racism has morphed into political antagonism.

 

[Prevenger17]

You both furloughed?

Unemployed. But now that you say it, getting into circular arguments with Grand Central Tubey has been the biggest sign so far that I need to get an effing job