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[Prevenger17]

You're spot on that he's singing to his own choir and not advancing any sort of discussion on this.

Neither are you. According to you, people shouldn't protest, players shouldn't kneel and fans should be free to boo any gestures or messages without comment from others. What form would you personally want the discussion to take, that factors in the footballers and millions of football fans around the UK?

 

[The Legend of Southall]

Let me be clear. I'm not calling them all racist, though I suspect a few of them are. I am calling them ignorant chumps. Why is the onus on the players, who have collectively chosen to make a statement and many of whom have undoubtedly experienced some form of racist abuse in their career, to placate Millwall fans who could just as easily not boo and quietly wait a few seconds for the match to start?

Oh I'm not calling for them to be placated.

I'm asking for them to be shown they are wrong by not using inflammatory language, and in a way that actually hits home. Rather than being fobbed off by the Milwall fans.

I just don't know how to go about that.

 

[Prevenger17]

I'm asking for them to be shown they are wrong by not using inflammatory language, and in a way that actually hits home. Rather than being fobbed off by the Milwall fans.

I just don't know how to go about that.

Most people with your stance on this don't know either. Maybe the players should get together and agree to do nothing until they devise a form of protest that The Legend of Southall on GOT would be satisfied with?

 

[Tubey]

Neither are you. According to you, people shouldn't protest, players shouldn't kneel and fans should be free to boo any gestures or messages without comment from others. What form would you personally want the discussion to take, that factors in the footballers and millions of football fans around the UK?

Nope. Didn't say that. Here's me in 2018.

...it is enlightening that people aren't just disagreeing with Kaepernick on social media; there's been an immediate, visceral racist reaction to him.

Which, of course, validates his position.

No, I'm all for Kick It Out, rainbow laces and anything else that is a purely progressive gesture. I'd be all for the gesture as it was prior to BLM - Kaepernick acted on his conscience with no other connotations attached to what he was doing.

But - and this is critical - the connotations have changed. The Millwall players tried to say their actions were not political, and that speaks volumes - because they know it now is. BLM changed what that gesture meant, they polluted it, and it now means support for an extreme political ideology.

That's what you seem to be missing. You surely can't hand on heart say that taking the knee just means anti-racism now. It doesn't; it provably doesn't, and the blame for that lies with the actions of BLM.

 

[The Legend of Southall]

Most people with your stance on this don't know either. Maybe the players should get together and agree to do nothing until they devise a form of protest that The Legend of Southall on GOT would be satisfied with?

My stance? I don't believe I've told you what that is.

Just out of curiosity, from reading what I've written, what is it you believe my stance to be?

 

[Prevenger17]

The Millwall players tried to say their actions were not political, and that speaks volumes - because they know it now is. BLM changed what that gesture meant, they polluted it, and it now means support for an extreme political ideology.

What volumes does it speak? Maybe take their word for it and accept that a few seconds of kneeling before a game isn't political? You know, listen to them as much as you listened to a terrace of Millwall fans.

I don't think the feelings of those supporters or your own feelings on BLM matter as much as the feelings of the players who have collectively decided to do this. To them, it's a peaceful protest. They're not knocking over statues, they're not burning shops. They're kneeling for a few seconds before a football game. I too would be up in arms if they decided to go a step further and start burning stadiums and knocking over goalposts, but they're not.

So what form would you prefer the discussion to take? What protest would you personally find agreeable and that Millwall fans shouldn't boo?

 

[Prevenger17]

My stance? I don't believe I've told you what that is.

Just out of curiosity, from reading what I've written, what is it you believe my stance to be?

That the booing Millwall fans should be educated in some other nebulous way you haven't come up with but that, in the meantime, players shouldn't rile them with provocative gestures like taking a knee. Is that not it?

 

[Charro]

You have to be open to education to receive it and take it on board.

Do you lads honestly believe the millwall fans will be receptive to any counter argument and will look within themselves to change?

I don’t. I think they should just be dismissed and condemned.

Sometimes you have to just accept that people are racist and try to keep them to the fringes instead of enabling them and showing sympathy and solidarity with them. By doing that, you’re giving them a voice, a voice that can be extremely dangerous and do nothing but incite and inflame the situation.

 

[The Legend of Southall]

That the booing Millwall fans should be educated in some other nebulous way you haven't come up with but that, in the meantime, players shouldn't rile them with provocative gestures like taking a knee. Is that not it?

No.

For the record, here is my stance:

I don't believe the players taking the knee to be a political gesture. I believe they are doing it for anti racist reasons.

I don't believe the Milwall fans think they are being racist. I believe they think it is a political gesture.

What I'm calling for is dialogue, rather than mud slinging. Because, so far (as in since taking the knee came in) calling them racist hasn't changed thier views.

By all means, players can keep taking the knee. But I also think it needs some follow up now too.

 

[Tubey]

What volumes does it speak? Maybe take their word for it and accept that a few seconds of kneeling before a game isn't political? You know, listen to them as much as you listened to a terrace of Millwall fans.

I don't think the feelings of those supporters or your own feelings on BLM matter as much as the feelings of the players who have collectively decided to do this. To them, it's a peaceful protest. They're not knocking over statues, they're not burning shops. They're kneeling for a few seconds before a football game. I too would be up in arms if they decided to go a step further and start burning stadiums and knocking over goalposts, but they're not.

So what form would you prefer the discussion to take? What protest would you personally find agreeable and that Millwall fans shouldn't boo?

They can't disentangle the gesture from the message. They can want to all they want - but it's impossible, just as reclaiming the Swastika from the Nazis would be totally impossible, no matter how loud you say that's your intent when using it. Their personal motivations doesn't negate the actual consequences of the gesture now.

I think you know it too.

This nails it.





Anti-racism can exist whilst being anti-BLM. They've corrupted the conversation to the point where you're now seen as a racist if you don't approve of BLM.

That has to be wrong.

For me, the discussion should be keeping the message of no racism in football, but with the gesture polluted it should be binned as it's doing more harm than good. For football, Kick It Out covered the bases needed in relation to football - expand on that. More broadly, conversations should move beyond gestures and into practicalities, like addressing institutional biases in the legal system, class imbalance (as seen by BAME being disproportionately affected by COVID due to economic living standards), life chances in education and so on.

 

[The Legend of Southall]

You have to be open to education to receive it and take it on board.

Do you lads honestly believe the millwall fans will be receptive to any counter argument and will look within themselves to change?

I don’t. I think they should just be dismissed and condemned.

Sometimes you have to just accept that people are racist and try to keep them to the fringes instead of enabling them and showing sympathy and solidarity with them. By doing that, you’re giving them a voice, a voice that can be extremely dangerous and do nothing but incite and inflame the situation.

Yes. This is what I meant by not being able to penetrate thier echo chambers. Any attempt to engage with them will be met with hostility.

I'm just not convinced leaving them to it is the best way. Populism arises when people believe they are being ignored.

If they believe that taking the knee is a political gesture linked to some lefty nonsense about not funding the police anymore (just a wild guess on my part), then calling them racist or ignoring them doesn't help the situation.

 

[Prevenger17]

They can't disentangle the gesture from the message. They can want to all they want - but it's impossible, just as reclaiming the Swastika from the Nazis would be totally impossible, no matter how loud you say that's your intent when using it. Their personal motivations doesn't negate the actual consequences of the gesture now.

Just to get this straight, you believe the Millwall fans who say they aren't booing for racist reasons and it was all about getting politics out of football.

You don't the believe the players who say it's not political, and it is just a symbolic gesture.

More broadly, conversations should move beyond gestures and into practicalities, like addressing institutional biases in the legal system, class imbalance (as seen by BAME being disproportionately affected by COVID due to economic living standards), life chances in education and so on.

So the players were wrong to collectively decide to take a knee. What form should these conversations take? "Conversation" is a bit vague. And do we take it that whatever way they devise to tackle these issues are wrong if Millwall fans eventually decide to boo it?

I think you know it too.

I really, really, really don't. I see it as just a knee and a passive protest. As I did when Kaepernick did it. I think it's people like you and the Millwall fans who are seeing it as something inflammatory and more than it is. And no, I'm not calling you a racist.

 

[longers]

Millwall fans explain they booed BLM to refute Engel's first law of dialectical materialism

The notoriously erudite supporters of Millwall FC have sought to clarify that they booed players taking the knee on Saturday, not as another episode in their long history of racist thuggery, but to express disdain with the ‘ultra-woke’ Heraclitean postulate of speculative thought centred on opposite

newsthump.com

 

[Tubey]

Just to get this straight, you believe the Millwall fans who say they aren't booing for racist reasons and it was all about getting politics out of football.

You don't the believe the players who say it's not political, and it is just a symbolic gesture.

No, I believe both. I believe the players want it to not be a political gesture; I'm simply saying regardless of what they want, it's impossible due to the wider connotations and consequences of the gesture.

It works beyond this one example too. Guardiola wearing a yellow ribbon for Catalan independence isn't just a supportive gesture of democracy as he tried to claim; it's got wider political consequences. It might have been what he intended; but what he intended doesn't matter in the slightest.

Or do you remember the Quenelle?



Anelka said his reasoning was that he made the gesture in support of performer Dieudonne M'bala M'bala and it meant nothing further.

Sound familiar? It doesn't matter what Anelka intended it to be; the wider consequence of the gesture is profound and obvious.

 

[Prevenger17]

No, I believe both. I believe the players want it to not be a political gesture; I'm simply saying regardless of what they want, it's impossible due to the wider connotations and consequences of the gesture.

Yes, the knee is and was a gesture of anti-racism. That's why they are doing it. They say it's not political and I believe them.

For me, anti-racism connotations are a little different to anti-semitic connotations, such as those of the quenelle or a Nazi salute. One is positive and inclusive, the other is negative and exclusionary. I mean, racists are going to be riled up by any gesture they perceive to be anti-racist aren't they? In the same way I would probably boo a Nazi salute. I have no qualms in saying what I believe is right and that the motivation for taking a knee is generally positive whereas the motivation for making a Nazi salute is generally negative.