Current Affairs The Landmarks of Slavery;

[Tubey]

They're not, they're taking a knee before a football game





Oh ffs, I'm oot. You win Tubes. Hopefully black footballers see the error of their ways and see that the completely informed people booing them just want some introspection and to be listened to

/shrug

My view is BLM isn't the best vehicle to combat racism. If you find that outrageous, so be it.

I'd just ask the question again - if it's sharpened the racial divide and has absolutely no tangible achievement to show for it, what's the point of it?



Indeed, Mr. Henry. Indeed.

 

[Charro]

Take it in the context of a pandemic lockdown, where people who disagree strongly with the politics of BLM have seen it propogated on their TV screens each and every week, in every sport, with no counter discussion, no challenge to their views, nothing.

And suddenly they have an outlet to speak.

In normal times, I'd agree with you. But these aren't normal times.

Someone asked me if I'd boo. No, not personally - I reserve that for Gylfi Sigurdsson personally. But I have sympathy for those that do, because there's been a constant, non-stop ideological slavishness to this subject from the press and media for months on end without reply.

I find it interesting that you wouldn’t boo it yourself whilst vehemently defending those that do. If you feel so strongly about a persons right to boo the kneeling and the BLM movement then why wouldn’t you take part yiurself? Do you not want to be associated with those that dboo?

Why do you have sympathy for these people? Surely your sympathy would be better aimed at the BLM movement who are fighting decades of discrimination, over the people who you just described as “nationalists”. These people have had a voice for as long as this country has existed. Black people haven’t which is the whole point of the kneeling.

 

[Tubey]

I can’t speak to the mindset of people in the UK as fans are allowed back into stadiums, but I’ll offer an observation from the US, as a lot of places here never stopped allowing fans at events. The people who are inclined to attend a sporting event mid-pandemic are overwhelmingly cut from the pro-Trump, anti-mask, anti-social justice mold. This will probably continue to be an issue if that’s largely the same type of folks that are willing to go back to stadiums in the UK right now.

It's not the same here. Pretty much an even split - while the capital is more prone to nationalism, the working class in general are left leaning. Evens out generally.

The below "feels" about right.

 

[Tubey]

I find it interesting that you wouldn’t boo it yourself whilst vehemently defending those that do. If you feel so strongly about a persons right to boo the kneeling and the BLM movement then why wouldn’t you take part yiurself? Do you not want to be associated with those that dboo?

Why do you have sympathy for these people? Surely your sympathy would be better aimed at the BLM movement who are fighting decades of discrimination, over the people who you just described as “nationalists”. These people have had a voice for as long as this country has existed. Black people haven’t which is the whole point of the kneeling.

My sympathy is aimed at those advocating anti-racism; BLM isn't the sole preserve of that. You can be an anti-racist and anti-BLM at the same time - I am. Racism exists, it's abhorrent, but in my view there's ways of countering it and BLM isn't it, because it's corrupted and too easy to attack. In football terms, Kick It Out is universally accepted and applauded. BLM was booed. It was because one was political and the other wasn't.

I also don't have to have sympathy with just one set of people. When I say I sympathise with those who boeod, it's because I recognise the situation they were in and the lack of voice they had.

As to why I wouldn't boo? Personal choice. For example, whilst I find defacing statues abhorrent, I do so from a historians perspective, not a nationalist one. I don't feel strongly enough about it to boo, but I have the ability to empathise with other views.

Similarly, do I understand why BLM advocates were offended by the boos? Sure. But on the balance of it, I think it's because they simply don't allow for any nuance - they see it as an attack by racists, end of story. I don't - I see it as an expression of understandable frustration at a cause that has failed by antagonising and patronising at every step.

 

[TN Toffee]

It's not the same here. Pretty much an even split - while the capital is more prone to nationalism, the working class in general are left leaning. Evens out generally.

The below "feels" about right.

View attachment 110370

Based on this graphic, it’s a miracle the Burnley fans don’t rip one another apart at every match. How can they be top 3 in both left and right wing fans?

Also, I wasn’t talking about the politics of people who attend during normal times. I was saying that there’s a substantial overlap here in the US between the type of people who aren’t bothered with being in big crowds during a pandemic and the type of people who aren’t bothered by social injustice.

 

[Tubey]

Based on this graphic, it’s a miracle the Burnley fans don’t rip one another apart at every match. How can they be top 3 in both left and right wing fans?

Also, I wasn’t talking about the politics of people who attend during normal times. I was saying that there’s a substantial overlap here in the US between the type of people who aren’t bothered with being in big crowds during a pandemic and the type of people who aren’t bothered by social injustice.

Ah I see. Well, yet to be seen really. You had loads of lefties doing mass demos in London for a climate emergency in the midst of a pandemic etc. but generally we just don't know the "type" of person to go football games because the return of fans has been so limited.

My guess is older people will continue to shield and not go, and everyone else will go, but that's just a guess and very difficult to quantify.

 

[ChesterBlue]

/shrug

My view is BLM isn't the best vehicle to combat racism. If you find that outrageous, so be it.

I'd just ask the question again - if it's sharpened the racial divide and has absolutely no tangible achievement to show for it, what's the point of it?



Indeed, Mr. Henry. Indeed.

To be fair my twitter’s dedicated to cyberbullying white supremacists, so I’ve probably personally sharpened that divide more than BLM solo

 

[Charro]

My sympathy is aimed at those advocating anti-racism; BLM isn't the sole preserve of that. You can be an anti-racist and anti-BLM at the same time - I am. Racism exists, it's abhorrent, but in my view there's ways of countering it and BLM isn't it, because it's corrupted and too easy to attack. In football terms, Kick It Out is universally accepted and applauded. BLM was booed. It was because one was political and the other wasn't.

I also don't have to have sympathy with just one set of people. When I say I sympathise with those who boeod, it's because I recognise the situation they were in and the lack of voice they had.

As to why I wouldn't boo? Personal choice. For example, whilst I find defacing statues abhorrent, I do so from a historians perspective, not a nationalist one. I don't feel strongly enough about it to boo, but I have the ability to empathise with other views.

Similarly, do I understand why BLM advocates were offended by the boos? Sure. But on the balance of it, I think it's because they simply don't allow for any nuance - they see it as an attack by racists, end of story. I don't - I see it as an expression of understandable frustration at a cause that has failed by antagonising and patronising at every step.

I think you wouldn’t boo because you know of the line it crosses.

As for having any kind of sympathy with them? This country is built on the type of views these people hold. Kinell, we have a nationalist government, that thinks ending free movement is an actual good thing. These people aren’t silenced or patronised, they’re enabled more than ever. The fact that their very own supports club come out in support of them should tell you all you need to know

Hey, they have a right to boo and protest how they wish, but we also have our right to call out what we perceive to be bigotry and racism.

Disagreeing with the movement is one thing, but to actively stand up to shout and boo against the gesture of kneeling is another, which is why I think people like yourself and others I’ve seen criticise the BLM movement would know not to take part in that act, as you know really the type of people you’d be associated with.

 

[Wizard]

The thing that really hits me about this is the people that say they don't like taking the knee as it has become a political thing, and we should "keep politics out of sport".

Racial equality is not a political thing, it is a fundamental human issue and a fundamental human right. Anyone that has their nose put out of joint by a show of solidarity really needs to have a word with themselves.

 

[The Legend of Southall]

A very good opinion piece in The Guardian that, for me, gets to the heart of the matter.

Our attitudes to race are complex. Our response to racism should be complex too | Sonia Sodha

Encouraging new research suggests effective ways of challenging prejudice

www.theguardian.com

Simply labelling people who have different, or not on topic views, as racists and bigots isn't working. We need a change in tact

 

[Prevenger17]

Ken Early: Taking the knee is not just an empty gesture – it never was

Booing Millwall fans remind everybody what the knee protests are actually all about

www.irishtimes.com

Good piece by Ken Early in the Irish Times

 

[The Legend of Southall]

Ken Early: Taking the knee is not just an empty gesture – it never was

Booing Millwall fans remind everybody what the knee protests are actually all about

www.irishtimes.com

Good piece by Ken Early in the Irish Times

You see, this is the point I'm trying to make.

His lines about remembrance day are way off. It isn't what it's about at all. What he's doing there is conflating the views of a vocal minority with the views of the majority. He's added 2+2 together to get what he believes is 4. Only trouble is, there is a huge glaring fault in his working out.

Now the metaphor might be messy, but I believe it can used in the case of the Milwall fans. They believe they have got 4, but there is a fault with their working out.

Calling them racist is only going to make them bunker down. We need to find a way to show them that, actually, what they have is 5.

How we go about that, I actually haven't got a clue. Someone going into thier echo chambers and trying to explain it, is going be to be given a very short shift I'm guessing.

 

[Tubey]

You see, this is the point I'm trying to make.

His lines about remembrance day are way off. It isn't what it's about at all. What he's doing there is conflating the views of a vocal minority with the views of the majority. He's added 2+2 together to get what he believes is 4. Only trouble is, there is a huge glaring fault in his working out.

Now the metaphor might be messy, but I believe it can used in the case of the Milwall fans. They believe they have got 4, but there is a fault with their working out.

Calling them racist is only going to make them bunker down. We need to find a way to show them that, actually, what they have is 5.

How we go about that, I actually haven't got a clue. Someone going into thier echo chambers and trying to explain it, is going be to be given a very short shift I'm guessing.

Shocking isn't it? Any counter-argument to his predefined view is shrugged off with an "etc.", like it isn't worthy of consideration.

In his world, 2,000 fans showed up and suddenly were rampant racists.

His analogy with Remembrance Day is actually offensive, wrong and, as you say, will be met with short shrift. You're spot on that he's singing to his own choir and not advancing any sort of discussion on this.

I especially love the part where apparently taking the knee happened in its own little unique bubble and is unrelated to BLM. You can make that argument with Kaepernick, but in 2020 the game has changed to say the least.

 

[The Legend of Southall]

Shocking isn't it? Any counter-argument to his predefined view is shrugged off with an "etc.", like it isn't worthy of consideration.

In his world, 2,000 fans showed up and suddenly were rampant racists.

His analogy with Remembrance Day is actually offensive, wrong and, as you say, will be met with short shrift. You're spot on that he's singing to his own choir and not advancing any sort of discussion on this.

I especially love the part where apparently taking the knee happened in its own little unique bubble and is unrelated to BLM. You can make that argument with Kaepernick, but in 2020 the game has changed to say the least.

I think taking the knee has lost it's impact now. Until the Milwall incident, I'd forgotten the players were still doing it.

What needs to happen now is a follow up to it. Greg Clarke tried, but he did it clumsily. So now we're back to square one.

 

[Prevenger17]

Calling them racist is only going to make them bunker down.

Let me be clear. I'm not calling them all racist, though I suspect a few of them are. I am calling them ignorant chumps. Why is the onus on the players, who have collectively chosen to make a statement and many of whom have undoubtedly experienced some form of racist abuse in their career, to placate Millwall fans who could just as easily not boo and quietly wait a few seconds for the match to start?