Current Affairs The Landmarks of Slavery;

[Lanolin]

That was what the discussion came from. And, treading over old ground here, football isn't a sport that is just about one attribute, or just about power, so why would the black players be mainly discussed in regards to that when white players aren't. There has been a lot of research into the superhumanistaion of black people by white people. There's anecdotal, of course, evidence from other football fans about how black players are spoken about (lazy, smile on their face, chants about Adebayor). But, because you know of some fast black people that is evidence that this isn't racist?

Again, I just asked a question. Is this not WILDLY off topic or is that only an issue when you don’t know what to say? Maybe tsubaki will give his opinion in a minute so you can just say you agree with it and avoid ever having to back yourself with an actual argument.

 

[dead_soft]

Again, I just asked a question. Is this not WILDLY off topic or is that only an issue when you don’t know what to say? Maybe tsubaki will give his opinion in a minute so you can just say you agree with it and avoid ever having to back yourself with an actual argument.

I said I don't know so why would I hazard a guess on it? I do think your comment was wildly off topic and then I explained why I thought it was. Or do you just repeat your, incorrect, suggestion because you lost the thread of your argument?
I would very much like @tsubaki to give opinions so I can click like and pretend I was as erudite.

 

[Lanolin]

I said I don't know so why would I hazard a guess on it? I do think your comment was wildly off topic and then I explained why I thought it was. Or do you just repeat your, incorrect, suggestion because you lost the thread of your argument?
I would very much like @tsubaki to give opinions so I can click like and pretend I was as erudite.

What suggestion did I make? I just asked a question. You can’t answer it and are just blustering, and have now tagged tsubaki in hoping he can help because he’s intelligent and you just pretend to be.

 

[Blues Harp]

Peace children...

 

[dead_soft]

What suggestion did I make? I just asked a question. You can’t answer it and are just blustering, and have now tagged tsubaki in hoping he can help because he’s intelligent and you just pretend to be.

What oddness.

I said I couldn't answer. I also said that it wasn't as relevant as you thought it was. I've also never denied there are potential differences between different races. I did however make points you ignored. It was also you that first mentioned tsubaki, I just had the decency to tag him
Or are you just desperate for my opinion on why black sprinters have won the majority of 100m races? Because I'm not the expert you think I am.

 

[Lanolin]

What oddness.

I said I couldn't answer. I also said that it wasn't as relevant as you thought it was. I've also never denied there are potential differences between different races. I did however make points you ignored. It was also you that first mentioned tsubaki, I just had the decency to tag him
Or are you just desperate for my opinion on why black sprinters have won the majority of 100m races? Because I'm not the expert you think I am.

I asked a question, to which I don’t know, and could not pretend to even begin to know, the answer. It was a genuine question as you had quite clearly suggested that any differences between the general public would not apply to athletes. I wondered how you would explain that stat in that case. Instead of answering you talked about an ‘argument’ but I wasn’t making one. When I pointed that out you talked about a completely separate point and tried to make out I was changing the subject even though I was just asking about what you had said. When I pointed that out you made out - again - that I had put forward an argument. I hadn’t. Forgive me then, if I tired a little of your bluster and allowed myself to be dragged down to your level, it’s been a long day.

 

[tsubaki]

All 100m runners are physically above average, but 15 of the last 20 (and all of the last 9) Olympic 100m mens titles have been won by black athletes. In fact only 2 medals have been won by white athletes in the last 10 Olympic 100m finals, both in 1980, when half the world was boycotting the games. How would you explain that?

Seeing as you asked, there might be some racial advantage in that particular event but there is probably quite a bit more in terms of cultural effects going on - you can see the same "selection" (albeit in reverse) in terms of swimming or cycling, where there have been astonishingly few black medallists.

If a black child shows some athletic ability, the chances are they are going to be directed down ways in which society "knows" they are more likely to succeed and where society feels comfortable in supporting them - so football, track and field athletics (though only certain events), boxing over here and in the US basketball and american football too. Obviously once they are along those pathways they are expected to conform to the "ideal" ie: power, strength, pace, physicality etc etc, and if they don't live up to that stereotype (as opposed to identifiable performance) they are probably less likely to make it. If they are talented at something like swimming, cycling, hockey or even tennis then it is probably going to have to come down to a really determined parent to get them to the point where they can compete.

The best example of this I can think of (and apologies for repeating myself) is Rom - how many managers looked at him and thought "Drogba" even though you only had to watch him for ten minutes to see that holding the ball up, bullying opponents and so on was not his game. If he played like anyone at all, I thought he was much more like Henry (chasing balls played into space, preferring to go down one side of the pitch rather than down the middle etc). How much has his career suffered because of this?

To return to the 100m, this is probably the same effect but in reverse. If you are a white lad who looks like he has talent and might grow into a good sprinter, are you going to be directed down that route or are they going to think you are more likely to get success in the long jump / hurdles / football? I think we all know the answer to that one.

 

[davek]

Seeing as you asked, there might be some racial advantage in that particular event but there is probably quite a bit more in terms of cultural effects going on - you can see the same "selection" (albeit in reverse) in terms of swimming or cycling, where there have been astonishingly few black medallists.

If a black child shows some athletic ability, the chances are they are going to be directed down ways in which society "knows" they are more likely to succeed and where society feels comfortable in supporting them - so football, track and field athletics (though only certain events), boxing over here and in the US basketball and american football too. Obviously once they are along those pathways they are expected to conform to the "ideal" ie: power, strength, pace, physicality etc etc, and if they don't live up to that stereotype (as opposed to identifiable performance) they are probably less likely to make it. If they are talented at something like swimming, cycling, hockey or even tennis then it is probably going to have to come down to a really determined parent to get them to the point where they can compete.

The best example of this I can think of (and apologies for repeating myself) is Rom - how many managers looked at him and thought "Drogba" even though you only had to watch him for ten minutes to see that holding the ball up, bullying opponents and so on was not his game. If he played like anyone at all, I thought he was much more like Henry (chasing balls played into space, preferring to go down one side of the pitch rather than down the middle etc). How much has his career suffered because of this?

To return to the 100m, this is probably the same effect but in reverse. If you are a white lad who looks like he has talent and might grow into a good sprinter, are you going to be directed down that route or are they going to think you are more likely to get success in the long jump / hurdles / football? I think we all know the answer to that one.

Exactly.

 

[dead_soft]

Seeing as you asked, there might be some racial advantage in that particular event but there is probably quite a bit more in terms of cultural effects going on - you can see the same "selection" (albeit in reverse) in terms of swimming or cycling, where there have been astonishingly few black medallists.

If a black child shows some athletic ability, the chances are they are going to be directed down ways in which society "knows" they are more likely to succeed and where society feels comfortable in supporting them - so football, track and field athletics (though only certain events), boxing over here and in the US basketball and american football too. Obviously once they are along those pathways they are expected to conform to the "ideal" ie: power, strength, pace, physicality etc etc, and if they don't live up to that stereotype (as opposed to identifiable performance) they are probably less likely to make it. If they are talented at something like swimming, cycling, hockey or even tennis then it is probably going to have to come down to a really determined parent to get them to the point where they can compete.

The best example of this I can think of (and apologies for repeating myself) is Rom - how many managers looked at him and thought "Drogba" even though you only had to watch him for ten minutes to see that holding the ball up, bullying opponents and so on was not his game. If he played like anyone at all, I thought he was much more like Henry (chasing balls played into space, preferring to go down one side of the pitch rather than down the middle etc). How much has his career suffered because of this?

To return to the 100m, this is probably the same effect but in reverse. If you are a white lad who looks like he has talent and might grow into a good sprinter, are you going to be directed down that route or are they going to think you are more likely to get success in the long jump / hurdles / football? I think we all know the answer to that one.

Thank God you appeared so I can click like.

Heskey’s career also suffered by being put on weight training and shoved into an awkward fit

 

[Tubey]

Seeing as you asked, there might be some racial advantage in that particular event but there is probably quite a bit more in terms of cultural effects going on - you can see the same "selection" (albeit in reverse) in terms of swimming or cycling, where there have been astonishingly few black medallists.

If a black child shows some athletic ability, the chances are they are going to be directed down ways in which society "knows" they are more likely to succeed and where society feels comfortable in supporting them - so football, track and field athletics (though only certain events), boxing over here and in the US basketball and american football too. Obviously once they are along those pathways they are expected to conform to the "ideal" ie: power, strength, pace, physicality etc etc, and if they don't live up to that stereotype (as opposed to identifiable performance) they are probably less likely to make it. If they are talented at something like swimming, cycling, hockey or even tennis then it is probably going to have to come down to a really determined parent to get them to the point where they can compete.

The best example of this I can think of (and apologies for repeating myself) is Rom - how many managers looked at him and thought "Drogba" even though you only had to watch him for ten minutes to see that holding the ball up, bullying opponents and so on was not his game. If he played like anyone at all, I thought he was much more like Henry (chasing balls played into space, preferring to go down one side of the pitch rather than down the middle etc). How much has his career suffered because of this?

To return to the 100m, this is probably the same effect but in reverse. If you are a white lad who looks like he has talent and might grow into a good sprinter, are you going to be directed down that route or are they going to think you are more likely to get success in the long jump / hurdles / football? I think we all know the answer to that one.

The bold bit is mostly spot on.

It comes back to what I said yesterday:

"... are we grown up enough to just say "yeah you know what, there's a difference as it stands", or are we just going to scream "racist" at everything."

You are right that the societal pressure plays a massive part in sport participation, so those that make it tend to conform to archetypes. In football, you get black strong, powerful, pacy players a lot more than you'll get technical brilliance. That isn't a "racist" judgement; it's just a reflection on reality. It's not like anyone is saying they can't be as good on the ball as Messi, but the inclination is to play to perceived strengths.

But I'll also add something else - where you say "where society feels comfortable in supporting them" - I think you're wrong there. I think certain races and societies are more prone to simply enjoying certain sports more than others. It's not about society sorting them into their little boxes where they belong, it's about them being interested in it culturally. That's why you get world class Japanese baseball players for example, yet only 31 English players have played in the MLB since the dawn of time - it's simply a lack of interest from differing cultures.

 

[Tubey]

Thank God you appeared so I can click like.

Heskey’s career also suffered by being put on weight training and shoved into an awkward fit

Remember when I said you only agree with things you already agreed with, and you said you don't?

Well, you don't help yourself with things like this.

I could literally point at the grass and say it's green at this point and you'd disagree.

 

[Lanolin]

Seeing as you asked, there might be some racial advantage in that particular event but there is probably quite a bit more in terms of cultural effects going on - you can see the same "selection" (albeit in reverse) in terms of swimming or cycling, where there have been astonishingly few black medallists.

If a black child shows some athletic ability, the chances are they are going to be directed down ways in which society "knows" they are more likely to succeed and where society feels comfortable in supporting them - so football, track and field athletics (though only certain events), boxing over here and in the US basketball and american football too. Obviously once they are along those pathways they are expected to conform to the "ideal" ie: power, strength, pace, physicality etc etc, and if they don't live up to that stereotype (as opposed to identifiable performance) they are probably less likely to make it. If they are talented at something like swimming, cycling, hockey or even tennis then it is probably going to have to come down to a really determined parent to get them to the point where they can compete.

The best example of this I can think of (and apologies for repeating myself) is Rom - how many managers looked at him and thought "Drogba" even though you only had to watch him for ten minutes to see that holding the ball up, bullying opponents and so on was not his game. If he played like anyone at all, I thought he was much more like Henry (chasing balls played into space, preferring to go down one side of the pitch rather than down the middle etc). How much has his career suffered because of this?

To return to the 100m, this is probably the same effect but in reverse. If you are a white lad who looks like he has talent and might grow into a good sprinter, are you going to be directed down that route or are they going to think you are more likely to get success in the long jump / hurdles / football? I think we all know the answer to that one.

Thanks, that makes a fair bit of sense. I think you’re right about rom, although I’m pretty sure that’s not a race thing. Football Commentators, scouts and coaches pigeonhole players, its just how football works. If you’re 6ft 3 they will make you a centre half or centre forward, no matter where you’d rather play. Duncan Ferguson as a 21 year old was a hugely gifted footballer who had it all in his locker, but joe Royle saw him and thought ‘me’, so he used him as an old fashioned battering ram. Your physical characteristics will always play a part in how you’re both used and perceived in sport.

 

[tsubaki]

The bold bit is mostly spot on.

It comes back to what I said yesterday:

"... are we grown up enough to just say "yeah you know what, there's a difference as it stands", or are we just going to scream "racist" at everything."

You are right that the societal pressure plays a massive part in sport participation, so those that make it tend to conform to archetypes. In football, you get black strong, powerful, pacy players a lot more than you'll get technical brilliance. That isn't a "racist" judgement; it's just a reflection on reality. It's not like anyone is saying they can't be as good on the ball as Messi, but the inclination is to play to perceived strengths.

That is the problem though, where the (unconcious, usually) racism is to be found. People end up measuring players, black players in this case, against that archetype - that they are powerful, pacy, strong etc. Anyone who doesn't match that stereotype is already suffering from that before they are measured on what they can actually do; this ends up being entirely self-reinforcing - "technical" black players aren't the ones who make it, therefore "technical" black players don't exist.

But I'll also add something else - where you say "where society feels comfortable in supporting them" - I think you're wrong there. I think certain races and societies are more prone to simply enjoying certain sports more than others. It's not about society sorting them into their little boxes where they belong, it's about them being interested in it culturally. That's why you get world class Japanese baseball players for example, yet only 31 English players have played in the MLB since the dawn of time - it's simply a lack of interest from differing cultures.

I disagree entirely there - for a lot of people sports like swimming, tennis, cycling or even non-sports like golf are not things they will ever get exposed to (in swimmings case because of the failure of successive governments to teach kids something that will save lives), never mind have an organized pathway to learn and get better at.

 

[dead_soft]

Remember when I said you only agree with things you already agreed with, and you said you don't?

Well, you don't help yourself with things like this.

I could literally point at the grass and say it's green at this point and you'd disagree.

ha ha,you’re oddly obsessed with me. That was a call back to a comment by another poster.
I presume we’ll see you flex your masterful power of complete reason and logic that only you hold.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Just heard that Cass Business School will no longer be called Cass Business School. Apparently John Cass, whose educational foundation donated a chunk of money to the school, obtained some of his wealth via the slave trade.