Current Affairs The Labour Party

[ToffeeTim]

Thank you for being candid with your response, but I can't help but think you're badly misconstrued.

I could point at the mix-market model of post-war Britain, which saw social mobility and equitable wealth amongst the poor sky-rocket - but I trust that you're already aware of it.

The "deal" offered by this current Labour Party to empower everyone, surely that's the "best deal" for everyone overall?

I think people are generally very happy to give something back, be it money, their time, efforts etc. But it's the socialist idea that our money belongs to the government and its their perogative how to redistribute it, that is what people don't like. People prefer to give to charity, volunteer, support others through means of their own choosing. Of course we need to pay our taxes and allow the government to have the safety net, but labour needs to be seen to be more responsible in handling our money, and then people will be less suspicious, and more willing to perhaps pay slightly more.

Personally I think my wage is my money, I should be allowed to keep as much of it as possible, and use it as I see fit. It's not the government's money and they shouldn't be allowed to simply decide how much I deserve to keep. The culture of waste inside government doesn't help me feel less suspicious either.

 

[Tree13]

I think people are generally very happy to give something back, be it money, their time, efforts etc. But it's the socialist idea that our money belongs to the government and its their perogative how to redistribute it, that is what people don't like. People prefer to give to charity, volunteer, support others through means of their own choosing. Of course we need to pay our taxes and allow the government to have the safety net, but labour needs to be seen to be more responsible in handling our money, and then people will be less suspicious, and more willing to perhaps pay slightly more.

Personally I think my wage is my money, I should be allowed to keep as much of it as possible, and use it as I see fit. It's not the government's money and they shouldn't be allowed to simply decide how much I deserve to keep. The culture of waste inside government doesn't help me feel less suspicious either.

I would echo this, word for word.

 

[ToffeeTim]

This is a really interesting point. There obviously must be people out there for whom the "deal' offered by Labour is the best option. The proof of this is that the Labour party still attracts voters in their thousands in many places. However, the "deal" on offer is not attractive to me, nor to my family, nor to anyone I know - the message I hear when the deal is put across is "Hey, you greedy racist - pay for everyone else who doesn't make the same sacrifices you do." The strongest irony being that a racist champagne socialist like Diane Abbott is usually the one hectoring me via the tv, trying to convince me that I should vote for a party that would have her as a senior figure. (The amount of air time Abbott gets is insane BTW - the BBC absolutely love her for some reason.)

Perhaps it's something to do with the part of the country in which I live, but of the people I know, the only ones who profess to be Labour supporters are in the 25-35 age bracket, have fairly well-paid jobs but don't own their own homes. No-one who fits the traditional stereotype of a Labour supporter - they seem to mostly favour UKIP.

Your point re post-war Labour serves an interesting purpose, but I don't think it's the one you intended. It simply reinforces the fact that the current Labour party seems pretty out of touch with its traditional voters. As I said above, apart from hipster students and recent graduates going through a social justice warrior stage, I simply don't see who Labour are representing. All of this is a real shame because there are some individual Labour policies which I like (according to that website thing that asks you dozens of questions re politics and then analyses your responses) and I can see that Corbyn is a decent man. The issue is that much of what he / Abbott / the labour party says is so extreme and divisive from my viewpoint that I would not consider voting for them. I suspect that this may be a similar problem for millions of people up and down the country.

I'm not going to gloat over the local election results. Even though I vote Tory, I want to see a strong opposition - we currently have nothing of the sort.

EDIT: I suppose this is all immaterial actually. The reasons why a Tory wouldn't consider voting for Corbyn and Abbott are so easily guessed that discussing them doesn't really matter. The real issue for the current Labour party at this precise moment in time is "why aren't Labour voters voting Labour anymore?"

Great post that, although I've never voted tory myself.

Labour's problems should have been quite easily solved, but unfortunately their current leadership and leading them into possibly 2 decades of oblivion. Not what anyone in Britain needs.

 

[The Cowboy]

I think people are generally very happy to give something back, be it money, their time, efforts etc. But it's the socialist idea that our money belongs to the government and its their perogative how to redistribute it, that is what people don't like. People prefer to give to charity, volunteer, support others through means of their own choosing. Of course we need to pay our taxes and allow the government to have the safety net, but labour needs to be seen to be more responsible in handling our money, and then people will be less suspicious, and more willing to perhaps pay slightly more.

Personally I think my wage is my money, I should be allowed to keep as much of it as possible, and use it as I see fit. It's not the government's money and they shouldn't be allowed to simply decide how much I deserve to keep. The culture of waste inside government doesn't help me feel less suspicious either.

This is a bloody brilliant post. Nothing more to add.

 

[The Cowboy]

This is a really interesting point. There obviously must be people out there for whom the "deal' offered by Labour is the best option. The proof of this is that the Labour party still attracts voters in their thousands in many places. However, the "deal" on offer is not attractive to me, nor to my family, nor to anyone I know - the message I hear when the deal is put across is "Hey, you greedy racist - pay for everyone else who doesn't make the same sacrifices you do." The strongest irony being that a racist champagne socialist like Diane Abbott is usually the one hectoring me via the tv, trying to convince me that I should vote for a party that would have her as a senior figure. (The amount of air time Abbott gets is insane BTW - the BBC absolutely love her for some reason.)

Perhaps it's something to do with the part of the country in which I live, but of the people I know, the only ones who profess to be Labour supporters are in the 25-35 age bracket, have fairly well-paid jobs but don't own their own homes. No-one who fits the traditional stereotype of a Labour supporter - they seem to mostly favour UKIP.

Your point re post-war Labour serves an interesting purpose, but I don't think it's the one you intended. It simply reinforces the fact that the current Labour party seems pretty out of touch with its traditional voters. As I said above, apart from hipster students and recent graduates going through a social justice warrior stage, I simply don't see who Labour are representing. All of this is a real shame because there are some individual Labour policies which I like (according to that website thing that asks you dozens of questions re politics and then analyses your responses) and I can see that Corbyn is a decent man. The issue is that much of what he / Abbott / the labour party says is so extreme and divisive from my viewpoint that I would not consider voting for them. I suspect that this may be a similar problem for millions of people up and down the country.

I'm not going to gloat over the local election results. Even though I vote Tory, I want to see a strong opposition - we currently have nothing of the sort.

EDIT: I suppose this is all immaterial actually. The reasons why a Tory wouldn't consider voting for Corbyn and Abbott are so easily guessed that discussing them doesn't really matter. The real issue for the current Labour party at this precise moment in time is "why aren't Labour voters voting Labour anymore?"

This is also a bloody brilliant post. Wish I could be so succinct in my posting!

 

[Armel]

I think it's an enormous leap to equate socialism as the route to fairness. History suggests that couldn't be further from the truth. Indeed, history suggests that things are generally fairer when power is dissipated, not concentrated.

For your statement to be correct, your definition of socialism has to be a very narrow one mate. Also what is fair in your opinion?

 

[Number_25]

I think people are generally very happy to give something back, be it money, their time, efforts etc. But it's the socialist idea that our money belongs to the government and its their perogative how to redistribute it, that is what people don't like. People prefer to give to charity, volunteer, support others through means of their own choosing. Of course we need to pay our taxes and allow the government to have the safety net, but labour needs to be seen to be more responsible in handling our money, and then people will be less suspicious, and more willing to perhaps pay slightly more.

Personally I think my wage is my money, I should be allowed to keep as much of it as possible, and use it as I see fit. It's not the government's money and they shouldn't be allowed to simply decide how much I deserve to keep. The culture of waste inside government doesn't help me feel less suspicious either.

I don't doubt your sincerity, but I can't help but disagree with you.

First of all, as a charity worker I can tell you straight up that the vast majority of people aren't willing to voluntarily 'give something back'. History shows what happens when wealth isn't taxed and redistributed proportionally, resulting in the sort of universal poverty this country faced in the latter parts of the 19th and early-20th century.

Another statement I find issue with is how "Labour needs to be seen to be more responsible in handling our money". Look at how badly the Conservative-led government has managed our public purse, national debt has gone through the roof as money; despite the fact that the government refuses point blank to invest into this country and re-establish an industrial base.

 

[Number_25]

This is a really interesting point. There obviously must be people out there for whom the "deal' offered by Labour is the best option. The proof of this is that the Labour party still attracts voters in their thousands in many places. However, the "deal" on offer is not attractive to me, nor to my family, nor to anyone I know - the message I hear when the deal is put across is "Hey, you greedy racist - pay for everyone else who doesn't make the same sacrifices you do." The strongest irony being that a racist champagne socialist like Diane Abbott is usually the one hectoring me via the tv, trying to convince me that I should vote for a party that would have her as a senior figure. (The amount of air time Abbott gets is insane BTW - the BBC absolutely love her for some reason.)

Perhaps it's something to do with the part of the country in which I live, but of the people I know, the only ones who profess to be Labour supporters are in the 25-35 age bracket, have fairly well-paid jobs but don't own their own homes. No-one who fits the traditional stereotype of a Labour supporter - they seem to mostly favour UKIP.

Your point re post-war Labour serves an interesting purpose, but I don't think it's the one you intended. It simply reinforces the fact that the current Labour party seems pretty out of touch with its traditional voters. As I said above, apart from hipster students and recent graduates going through a social justice warrior stage, I simply don't see who Labour are representing. All of this is a real shame because there are some individual Labour policies which I like (according to that website thing that asks you dozens of questions re politics and then analyses your responses) and I can see that Corbyn is a decent man. The issue is that much of what he / Abbott / the labour party says is so extreme and divisive from my viewpoint that I would not consider voting for them. I suspect that this may be a similar problem for millions of people up and down the country.

I'm not going to gloat over the local election results. Even though I vote Tory, I want to see a strong opposition - we currently have nothing of the sort.

EDIT: I suppose this is all immaterial actually. The reasons why a Tory wouldn't consider voting for Corbyn and Abbott are so easily guessed that discussing them doesn't really matter. The real issue for the current Labour party at this precise moment in time is "why aren't Labour voters voting Labour anymore?"

Thank you for replying to my post, I don't have much time available right now so this might sound a little rushed.

The leadership of the party has expressed very clearly that only the rich who earn above £70,000 a year will face any sort of tax increase - that'll provide the financial basis for a mixed-market economy which should bring back vital high-paid high-skilled industrial jobs that our country desperately needs.

I'm not Diane Abbott's biggest fan, but it's really unfortunate that good policy (20,000 more police on the street) has been overshadowed by a momentarily lapse in concentration.

I'm also not trying to "convert" people here, I hope you understand - I'm just trying to give an alternative viewpoint on the matter.

 

[Number_25]

Interesting paper I read awhile back about income inequality in the United States.

https://eml.berkeley.edu/~saez/saez-zucmanNBER14wealth.pdf

 

[WycombeToffee]

I don't doubt your sincerity, but I can't help but disagree with you.

First of all, as a charity worker I can tell you straight up that the vast majority of people aren't willing to voluntarily 'give something back'. History shows what happens when wealth isn't taxed and redistributed proportionally, resulting in the sort of universal poverty this country faced in the latter parts of the 19th and early-20th century.

Another statement I find issue with is how "Labour needs to be seen to be more responsible in handling our money". Look at how badly the Conservative-led government has managed our public purse, national debt has gone through the roof as money; despite the fact that the government refuses point blank to invest into this country and re-establish an industrial base.

This criticism of the Tories that debt has increased under their tenure is one of the most frustrating things I constantly hear. It has been said before, but it would be impossible for it not to have increased considerably when you inherit a government with a massive deficit between income and spending. I saw in the news a couple of weeks ago that borrowing has now fallen to its lowest level in a decade. This is the way forward, and the deficit needs to be whittled away before the total debt can be tackled. It is just simple logic.

 

[ToffeeTim]

I don't doubt your sincerity, but I can't help but disagree with you.

First of all, as a charity worker I can tell you straight up that the vast majority of people aren't willing to voluntarily 'give something back'. History shows what happens when wealth isn't taxed and redistributed proportionally, resulting in the sort of universal poverty this country faced in the latter parts of the 19th and early-20th century.

Another statement I find issue with is how "Labour needs to be seen to be more responsible in handling our money". Look at how badly the Conservative-led government has managed our public purse, national debt has gone through the roof as money; despite the fact that the government refuses point blank to invest into this country and re-establish an industrial base.

I think youre being unfair on large swathes of the UK population. This country is definitely not as selfish and greedy as you suggest. I try to give whereever possible. I think within the current labour movement there are way too many sweeping generalisations. I just look down my twitter feed the last few days and so many posts from people along the lines of "cannot believe people not voting labour, how can so many want the disabled to die". Now maybe you think im wrong again, but i know lots of people who dont vote labour, and none of them express that view. And thank goodness at that. That sort of nonsense has to stop if you want to win votes off decent people. I dont try and be an expert, I just try to give my observations to you.

Does it feel like the country is better off than 2010? Yes I think so. Yes debt still high, but we can service it better. Employment rates are very good. Personal allowance doubled, minimum wage soon to be double.

I'm not aligned and don't even think i can vote labour/tory in my constituency in NI. Just trying to give an objective view of why I feel labour/corbyn message is failing. There's being power hungry and there's being stubborn. Labour need to meet the electorate somewhere in the middle of they're to be electable.

I would say that while I disagree with some things you say, you are a credit to your party and a heck of a lot of others in labour could learn to debate in such an articulate and mature manner

 

[roydo]

I would say that while I disagree with some things you say, you are a credit to your party and a heck of a lot of others in labour could learn to debate in such an articulate and mature manner

Well said, and seconded by me.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

I think youre being unfair on large swathes of the UK population. This country is definitely not as selfish and greedy as you suggest. I try to give whereever possible. I think within the current labour movement there are way too many sweeping generalisations. I just look down my twitter feed the last few days and so many posts from people along the lines of "cannot believe people not voting labour, how can so many want the disabled to die". Now maybe you think im wrong again, but i know lots of people who dont vote labour, and none of them express that view. And thank goodness at that. That sort of nonsense has to stop if you want to win votes off decent people. I dont try and be an expert, I just try to give my observations to you.

Does it feel like the country is better off than 2010? Yes I think so. Yes debt still high, but we can service it better. Employment rates are very good. Personal allowance doubled, minimum wage soon to be double.

I'm not aligned and don't even think i can vote labour/tory in my constituency in NI. Just trying to give an objective view of why I feel labour/corbyn message is failing. There's being power hungry and there's being stubborn. Labour need to meet the electorate somewhere in the middle of they're to be electable.

I would say that while I disagree with some things you say, you are a credit to your party and a heck of a lot of others in labour could learn to debate in such an articulate and mature manner

Great post.

 

[ashwuk76]

I think this sums it up. We all want a strong viable alternative to the current government, but labour have totally lost touch with its people. Diane Abbott on her own is the single best reason to vote for any other party....

Since when do you want a credible alternative to the current government? You are a tory surely you are loving what is happening?

 

[roydo]

Since when do you want a credible alternative to the current government? You are a tory surely you are loving what is happening?

Not really. Any decent Government needs to have a credible opposition.

Or you end up with the Scottish Premier League, sort of.